Best Boiler Room Practices

the broadcast is now starting all attendees are in listen-only mode hey welcome everybody caught with coffee thanks for joining us today and that's also thanks for your support of coffee we appreciate you to never e one of you and inputs always welcome you know we love hearing from you whatever we can do to help you out or make our presentations better let us know so thanks this is going to be kind of fun today like I say it's our hunter the version of the webinar so we thought we'd kind of do something kind of fun and different today so see what you think as we go along here yeah John external is I hope everybody that's tuned in today is getting these are free we send them out twice a year the next one will be out in July here you can get back issues is also available on our website as the PDF so if there's an issue out there that you want to you know use some of the information out for some of your own training or something like that we can make these really accessible for you to use but there are also good collector's item they're all pre punch they'll fit in the binder I'm going to go to engineering office and I love seeing these hydronic issues under shelves it just proves to us that these are being used that you guys do for the guys and gals do appreciate us cranking this out there today it was hard to pick just one issue that really wraps up everything we're going to be talking about today but I think the closest one I could find is number 19 and what we did on this is a couple issues back is we took six of the most common questions we get or piping diagrams we see that have little glitches into them and we talked about that so you'll feel drawing in those with the big X to it like don't do it this way this was the mistake that was made or this is you know what didn't work properly on that and then we talked about the best way to correct that so that's the issue that I think really talks pretty much about every drawing and picture and I'm going to show you today now keep in mind as I show these you know I could ask everyone that's tuned in today to go out there and design and/or install a job and every one of you could do it a little bit differently and that doesn't mean that you know one is wrong or that one's better than the other you know you might look at this drawing and say well I would have used a 90 and a 45 there instead of two 90s or something like that so that's not what we're trying to you know to analyze and look at here we're just trying to show how these jobs were put together the different type of materials they used for example the the PE tubing that aquatherm tubing used on this job how they put the components together their selection of components and stuff like that and that's our intention here is not to look at a piping schematic and say well I could have put that into two beauty less so this is one that came in to us from our friends up in Canada this is a poultry barn it takes about a got my notes here above us next 26,000 square-foot poultry barn has multiple boilers there I think those are 399 boilers or rolla boilers and they feed a bunch of air handlers in the various parts of this poultry barn every one of the air handlers has one of our 132 quick Center balancing bells on it so they are able to go around and the seller was able to go around a balancing system without happen to come back with a meters so you see if this pointer is visible for everybody here so a couple things I'll point out as we go here I like the way that he's a you know put the pipe pumps below every boy who's got isolation there you can see that up on the top he's got additional air vents on the top of the boiler so those are high point vents in addition to the air removal that you're going to get from our hydroseparator here you also have these vents on the top of every one of the boiler manufacturers will send that down along with it and show you a you know picture a drawing of how to put that in with a P like that I also like that he used all brass components here so you won't get a rust or corrosion or anything going up into that vent and causing problems there of course you can see sticking it's pressure relief valve and pipe that down to the down behind the borders down with its floor the other thing this picture right here that I really like is that he's put this little check sheet it's got his company name on there almost contact information but on a sheet like this or a little sticker like this you could put notes on there like if you put a chemical in this system maybe make a note of what may be put Romar or something in there the date that you put it in there number the product that you put in there so down the road another contractor a troubleshooter comes to work on the system some day he's got a pretty good track record of what's been done on that system when it was installed what type of fluid might have been put into it so he doesn't have to start over and repeat some of the work that's already been done and then what else can I talk about over here you can see they by using this aquatherm pipe we've got the larger hide receptors like this come in a flange version so all we had to do here is get a companion flange and then you could go right to that fusion weld pipe so it made a really quick and clean connection to get into that I've also seen in fact it might be some of the other pictures coming up where they'll put isolation valves in here put like a butterfly here wafer valve in there so if you did want to isolate this off for whatever reason and maybe add into the system someday or something like that that can be done now he's got isolation of course at the boiler but I've seen it where they've isolated for these separators too but that's a really nice piping job we like seeing this we like seeing these big jobs where they can use the big hydro separators and get the multi function I mean really that's the key because I went through the slides and a hard time finding any of the pictures that have been sent into a sort of what four or five years now that had primary secondary piping I think the next slide shows one example that but that tells us that a lot of the industry is embracing the hydroseparator x' I know a lot of the boiler manufacturers are showing this is the piping option in their installation manuals so I think people are realizing that's nice to have the four functions in one device if you've got the magnetic version of this you've got magnetic separation air and dirt separation as well as your four port connection through your rear hydraulic separation so it's a it's a real space and time saver so here's an example thanks to guys from psi out in Avon Colorado for sending this and this was a convention center job they had a big two million Btu boiler in it that was starting to go and the efficiency was starting to affect the pocketbooks there a little bit so they wanted to replace that two-million with a couple well seven hundred twenty five thousand condensing boilers got it up and going just in time for the snowfall in tube and fan clothes on this job but here's exactly what we talk about when we talk about primary secondary where you just take the boiler and T it in this primary loop with two closely spaced T's here it looks like that's in victaulic fittings there that's probably a rural group job on the piping that was in the building and then they just transitioned the copper to tie into been multiple boilers here but what you'll see in this picture is he's done a good job so he's got the dirt separator here he's got his primary secondary and somewhere in the picture there's probably an error separator in there so here's a classic example where we could have put one device on this job or dual device we could have put it a combination air and dirt separator here or we're going to use the hydroseparator and taken pretty much everything in this picture out taking a closed-in space tease out the primary secondary piping would be done via the hydroseparator and we would have got the dirt removal and we would have got arable so I think in this case this was probably the best and quickest way to get into that job because they were under the gun here for timing to get this thing replaced and not have that building down for too long a period of time so you can see where they just split into the primary appearing on put the two tees in there and use the primary second it works fine I mean this is an option and all the piping drawings that you'll see from the manufactures you'll see this primary secondary shown is a proper way to pipe this type of boiler to sure that it gets adequate loan we're hydraulically isolated the primary loop from the secondary loop fits this closely spaced tees here hey Bob before we go to the next slide can you hear me okay yeah I heard your voice coming in and so go ahead maybe we'll do a poll on hydraulic separation for the audience here and just get a pulse on their practices today between using a hydraulic separator devices versus using as you see on the photograph your closely spaced tees so let me launch this poll and just see what the folks are saying out there all right that's good to get some feedback and we've got this many people the captive audience okay so the question is for primary secondary piping when do you use a hydraulic separator instead of closely spaced tees you almost always use a hydraulic separator when you want primary primary secondary versus closely spaced most of the time some of the time or seldom you can pick one answer what best matches your practices either as a designer or as a installer out there okay so twenty-eight percent some of the time twenty I can't read it I think twenty-five percent most of the time 20-some percent almost always and then 24 it's pretty much evenly split and either screen but it's pretty much right down the middle evenly split between those four different options or practices so very good that's interesting I would have thought there'd be a clear winner there so yeah well thanks for the feedback from everybody that participated there so so here's what I did I thought this was a good idea see what you think I took a slide of a random jobs that you sent it from the cleft the excellence and what I did here is I credited the people that send this to us both the designer and if you did include the installer I put both names on there and also what I did so if you want to go back to our website I put the C II which is clef e excellence this is the date that they entered this so February of 2015 is when this is sewn in so if you want to go to our website and you want to get more information on this job most of these entries had multiple pictures obviously hard to cram too many pictures of the slide like that but I'll try and talk about each one of these and give you a little information but if you do want to go back to our site there and look and get some more pictures and see you know the rest of this piping or some more explanation on now the other thing that I did is I also put the ID Ronix that I think and they're hoping that this install ernest designer i no darou up their mind use when you decide to use a buffer tank on this job because that's what we're showing here he's got a boiler with multiple zones you can see by the manifolds and it's piped it to a buffer tank and we did night Ronix issue a couple years ago number 17 on buffer tanks and you can see this picture looks a lot like what's in this drawing here one of the drawings that's inside the hydraulics so that's what I'm trying to tie together here is the hydraulics that fits the picture and then also where you can go and get more information on it but what I'm going to try and do is just take a minute or two on each one of these slides and just kind of walk through here and point out some of the things that I think are interesting and I think would be good information to share the buffer tank so basically what he's doing is he's piping right out of the boiler into the buffer tank so that gives them a little bit more mass to the system a little bit more capacity so to speak so this becomes sort of a thermal battery if you will stores a little bit of the energy so if for example he's got just one of these zones kicking on if this is owned with actuators or zone valves out further out in the system you can see its own valve up here you won't short-cycle the border so that's really what we're trying to do if this border can't modulate down to the lowest flow rate required trips just one of these manifolds or one of these zones open you're going to get excessive cycling so the buffer tank just gives us a little bit more capacity in the system to try and minimize the on-and-off cycling of that boiler so since you've got this it becomes a multiple function device to buffer tank so now you've got the hydraulic separation between your boiler and your distribution over here you also have an air elimination point because this is a dome top inside of our tanks here so that's a great place to grab air because what we know about a buffer tank is it's a real low velocity zone as the flow goes into here it let's say I don't know let's pick a number 10 gallons a minute and it goes into those big inch and a half or two inch connection ports on the side of this tank and it goes into this big space it slows down and that's a great way to get air out if you can slow the velocity that fluid going in and out of this tank then it becomes a giant air separator basically I also like that you put a gauge up here and from what I can see it looks like it might be a multiple gauge like a pressure and temperature gauge so that becomes a good place it's about the only gauge I see in this picture to know where this with a static fill pressures on our system it's a good place to get a glance if he's got a leak if for some reason that pressure go that goes down he knows that there could be a leak in the system so in the temperature course it'll give you a good indication of what's being stored in the attack and what's available out to the multiple zones you can see this is a ien C type of pump it looks like a gun process alpha which is a great pump when you're going to zone with valves like that that pump can modulate based on the and the load requirement says multiple zones I'll start opening and closing here that pump is going to match its output to the demand on the system all the time and by having the buffer tank there is a hydraulic separator it doesn't matter if you're pulling two gallons a minute out of this system up to the zones or if all these zones are open and maybe we're going as high as 10 or 12 gallons a minute that pumps going to modulate and by having the buffer tank as our separator we won't be affecting the flow going through the boiler so it really makes a nice combination here and by using our stubby version of our thermal comm there it fits right under the boiler here so it didn't take a lot of real estate in that room to get a really nice system that's buffered it's got the modulation it's got the variable speed pumping and also the they are in dirt separation now also notice that the these made transition to PEX tubing here we do on some of our valves have adaptors now that you could go right off that valve with a pecs tail piece on it so we've got the tail pieces that you can sweat you can press you can thread or it has a pecs insert like that so that wouldn't take an additional fitting to come out that valve to go to the pecs run out to the manifold so that's something new that maybe some of you didn't realize that we offer that in all those different types of connections for a bunch of our different valves pretty much any one one of our valves get its own Bell or mixing valve a balancing valve that has a one-inch G thread on it G for gas thread it's just a straight thread you can now choose different types of tail pieces for the connections that you know you like in fact you can mix and match you could have a thread on one end of this valve and a press on the other so then you don't have to make any on-the-job transition fitting because it's all built right into the tail piece that you buy from this what else can I tell you about this nice piping a nice tight application now it does look like he's got an additional air separate up here that's not a bad idea there's no harm in having more than one place to get air knowing that this isn't a micro bubble type of air separation device it looks like up here he's got one in the piping also and that's that will get any little micro bubbles that are in the system as you start up or it starts up every phone in the heating mode so you might have gone to Ron Harris 20 minutes on that one what I want to show and that was in one of the teasers I know that we had enough in the promotion for this webinar is small footprint jobs where you've got just a small mechanical closet or you're trying to get everything in one room maybe under staircase or in a smaller mechanical room because even on the biggest homes that we see out there seven eight ten twelve thousand square foot homes they still give you the smallest possible space to put all this equipment and so here's an example where the hydroseparator really helps in that epic look how close you were able to get that indirect tank to that boiler by using the hydroseparator and have to do instead of having to do a primary secondary we'd have to do a loop in and out of this border other closely-spaced tees have the additional pump going over that so this really cleans up the piping that makes it so you can really squeeze the components tight together like that there are no minimum you know distances in and out of this thing so you could have an elbow right at that it's still going to do air separation even if you were to close couple that with elbows coming right out of both sides that unlike some of the air scoops out there we've got to have 18 inches of piping to mention before you go into them to get your good air separation with the set for our separators with the media that we put inside there now you can close couple to them you can have a pump pump right against that connection also to pump right of it and this would still do a good job of air and dirt removal we're seeing more and more of the poly bending on that you can see they're an example that what else can I show you here does look like is use ECM pumping on either these are look like just basic fix speed pumps but press fitting that's another thing that you'll see in some of the jobs as we go through there we do have fittings to depth directly from our components to press now that you don't have to have another transition fitting between the coffee component if you want to go to press I thought probably the best I'd Ronix to refer to here would be 11 because there is some mixing valve on the domestic water so we talked about that especially if you got to put a best of water recirculation pump which I know what there's a recirculation pump in there and then also the hydraulic separation now what you'll see as we go through there we actually did a couple issues on hydraulic separation one of our first issues that we came out with was on hydraulic separation but over the years we've improved the products we've got more products that we offer for that so what we do is a will come out with an updated version hydraulics that will talk about the new products that we've added and some of the new technologies that we see out there so on some of these slides you'll notice I look at a another issue one or two as well as an updated version of it in this case issue number 15 we did hydraulic separation again hey Bob before you lead this slide the fill valve up above the hydraulic separator you can see he's slanted it probably do allow some clearance on that pipe above and actually get access to the pressure dial you might want to talk about that diaphragm and and the importance of orientating so it's orientation capability in terms of how to present it yeah what we don't want to do when you hold true for any pressure reducing valve is you wouldn't want to have this face and down like this because then any dirt or debris that would set on that diaphragm lettuce that diaphragm moves up and down you've got a little wear point there and the same thing for a backflow preventor there's one position Kevin down there not I think you can put this vertically but it depends on the flow direction going through it I think at the flow direction that's going up this can be mounted vertically but you can't put the backflow preventer at least aspecto better vertically if you're flowing down for the same reason that we can trap against those check valves in there so I guess the key to that is always read the directions the installation information I think there's mark said this one's tipped out a little bit so that could be serviced because you can see there's a pipe above it so if ever you want to get in there and you know clean off the strainer that's around that cartridge or replace it if it ever went bad yeah and that's my advice you can even tilt it it sideways which is okay but it's not Yelp side down yeah not upside down is what we're saying the only thing is going to say about that like it's hard to come this picture but we'd like to see you guys put a bent pipe out of this uh backflow preventor vent port down to the floor here because someday if something gets stuck in those check valves this thing could dribble a little bit of water out and we said we don't want to drill them down across all this equipment so that's good series we give you a threaded port there it's not to put a plug in someday if it leaked it's to put a drain tube down to where it could drip someday so if it failed and not causing the problems so it might be in that picture I'm not saying it's not but it's it's not clear to be drawing a pipe it's in there but thanks to Rob percent of the sin and this was a replacement job out in Colorado another I guess I could call this another tight space job here what's a little bit different about this job is this a job that's being zoned with John pumps this is remote comes up again another nicely pipe system you can see the hydraulic separator banged up real tight across to that nti boiler a low water cutoff switch there pressure relief valve there pipe down to the floor so if that ever spits at them spit on the equipment it looks like that pipe right there probably goes to that pressure relief valve expansion tank you know there's controversy out there can a tank be mounted upside down like this some people say no the nipple should always be up I'll tell you I went to the AM trio site recently and they don't say that this is not isn't one of the ways that you can mount it so you'll see as we go through these pictures some of them with the connection to the tank or up some are actually mounted sideways with the connection out either right or left hand side and some of them are mounted like this with the with the tab facing down you can see he's got kind of a little trap in here he's got also an isolation bail there which is a good idea so there shouldn't be an issue with any dirt or debris getting in their work and rub against that diaphragm notice also that this has a fail system on it so maybe it's a glycolic system we are seeing more and more of these you know fill tanks where you can mix your chemicals or mix your glycol in there and that maintains the via that pressure reducing valve man came to system fill pressure in there and also the lower water cutoff switch there if there is a leak in the system and you do run out of fluid in your filled tank he's got protection up there second level of protection for preventing employer from firing with no water another on your low fluid condition or anything else I can show you there I think that's pretty good nice think pipe nicely mounted isolation valves on the pump and stuff so that can be service down the road this one here I'd like it again another job with the looks like aquatherm brand piping in this job he's got a bigger firm magnet this one a gun Faust magnet pumps a little bit higher output pump than the Alpha pump so you can see we've got quite a few zone circuits on this job here it's got some valves over here on this wall it's here so I don't know if he gave me a total harmony valves this or the medical clinic so this was another retrofit job where they never had good control over all the different rooms in this clinic so this installer there went in a designed assistant that gave him the ability to zone every one of the rooms in this in this little clinic here so it gave much better heat control and by using the variable speed ECM pump as these own valves toggle open and close that pump is going to speed up and match the output that's required by the job and again that's all possible because he's got the hydraulic separator here so you might have one gallon I'm going to go on out here under some conditions and you might have all these own valves you open you could have as much as 20 or 25 gallons per minute and it's not going to affect the flow in these boilers over here because it's isolated with the separator here giving him the function of via this is a SEP 4 so he's got a removal on the top it's got dirt removal is a magnetic band around the bomb this for magnetic separation for magnetite or anything that might be in the system and then also the hydraulic separation with the for recording if you guys look at the hydraulic separator really its primary secondary in a box when you look at it you turn on outside there's your closely spaced EADS we just make convenient and put form in there so you've got both your primary and secondary piping I'll build into the box for you I put this issue in there this is one we did a number of years ago I'm zoning and if anybody's had a chance to look at that but we just give you some good pointers and tips about zoning and probably one of the best takeaways from this hydraulics issue is when you zone and you use multiple zone bells we like to think anytime you put more than four zone bells in a system you should really be looking at using one of these Delta P type of pumps that can vary its output or have a pressure a bypass valve piped either somewhere after the pump here or at the end of it so that if you have a fixed speed pump that zones open and closed we make a bypass valve that could be piped in there this is I think the best way to do it because you're going to have the ability to pump to modulate but also you get the less power consumption with that ECM type of motor yeah Bob I was going to say you know someone argue that up a permanent split capacitor type pump would be okay if it has a very flat you know curved head curve but but then again you're going to consume much more energy than a an ECM pump exactly now here's a product that we make and we don't steal a lot of these out there this is what we call a hydrant link and what this device does here is the hydroseparator built right into the end of it here you can see the boiler connection but it's also the distribution manifold so it's kind of a hydroseparator with the addition of course to mount your pumps or you're mixing stations right onto it so a little bit of air removal here although I do like that he put an additional error removal device here because this chamber isn't very big in here we don't get a lot of air removal that you would from a know am I like a bubble type of a removal device here and then what this allows you to do it now we've got a newer version of this you can actually put our mixing stations and bold and white on these connections so you can see what they've done here is he's got them three different temperature going out to the job so actually four if you count this one on the bottom that isn't mixing so he's got the different types of distribution we've got some panel radiators some rating in slabs so every one of these can be adjusted to the temperature that that circuit requires whether it's a fin tube or a panel radiator or a radiant slab type of job so it's a good way again to it's a space saver so instead of doing the primary secondary piping unhappen make all these close T's you had the pipe every one of these set of T's into a primary loop here next to that bore that we've taken a lot more fittings a lot more time to do it so that's really with hydro wind gets limited to about a hundred hundred and ten thousand B two jobs because of the you know the size of the piping that we build into this hydraulic here but it is a nice little problem solvers for a job like this where you want to do a lot of mixing and you have again a tight space to to get everything into expansion tank can't get off a nice break here additional air vent at the high point their pressure pressure gage up their rage up there for the stereo system yeah I like this I got to keep moving here mark and I thought I was going to have not enough slides and Here I am looking at my screens again how am I going to pull this off so another new home installation here goooal Boyer's outdoor reset it's a smart indirect tank here I like this one because it shows our some of our wiring components so there's our zone valves and there's some of the coffee relay boxes so we've got boxes that can run various pumps under different conditions you can select the priority of these pumps especially when you have an indirect tank if you want to make sure that when there's a call for indirect that we drop off the distribution going out to the heating system we can do that right in our box has the capacity to select the way that you want to prior to prioritize the status of which pumps come on one so it really makes a good match for with our z1 valve with our relay boxes because it does give you so much flexibility on the way that you can call these pumps on and off in my other example yep question came in I shared but here's a good example to illustrate this whole issue of magnetic you know you're seeing more and more manufacturers coming out with magnetic separation technology and women would even consider that as a designer or an installer boat here you can see all kinds of piping you have copper I can you can see iron piping right there you can see packs going up off those own belts but it's the iron or anything steel related or basically fairest based type components in a hydraulic system including pumps for that method the balut sub pumps are oftentimes iron if they're exposed if there's a not a real good job on oxygen dissolved oxygen control you can get that like you said magnetite form and what you don't want to have is that getting into your your pumps or your in this case perhaps that condensing boiler over there doesn't like it either you know areas to be concerned with yeah and that's the again that's a function that's built into our set for that magnetic band now these are DCM pumps we we insist that you put it on ECM pump they have magnetic separation but it's never bad to have it in because here's another two so that probably cast under steel whether it's an electric board let's actually do a boiler system a lot of times up in Quebec they're they'll use electric when the rates are the desirable and then when the rates go high at peak hours or something like that they can switch over to natural gas or LP so that's another big chunk of ferrous metal in the system so that's what a separator protects all the different in that picture so again nicely pipe nicely wired it's nice we appreciate that people you know take pride in their work like I'm down here how he's lined everything up perfectly and has a nice job on the wiring so hey Bob these these are pecs the lines might be going up to radiant slabs it's hard to spend I'm not quite sure but are you seeing that in general as we've seen the plumbing sector Tech's being more used for just general distribution versus metal based piping it seems to be I mean it's you know it goes in quicker it's you can flex it through a lot of place on retrofit or new installation in this job you can see down here he does have a little bit of everything it's got some radiance and panel red and some air handlers in here so that is a good way to do that and we do like I said earlier we make a connection that could go right onto his own belt with that pecs no it looks like he's probably got some isolation in there which is never bad things so if someday you had to change the body of a valve which where what happens but it looks like he's gone to evolve and then up to a pecs transition fitting but I would say that's pretty common especially running out to radiant manifolds where you might have one of the closet or up in a ceiling or a basement somewhere I think I still like to use hard piping and I prefer that in the boiler mechanical room just to keep all this piping nice and neat makes it easy to mount it keep everything straight net it's hard to make it look really pretty when you use a PEX tubing to do all this near boiler piping so I think you'll always see a blend like that of some pecs with some copper iron pipe and we've seen that pretty much in every slide it looks like there was a mix and match of anything from steel to copper to the pecs on that so Jim the contractor that I know that does a lot of the old gravity conversion systems back in New York there and this is an example of one that was a gravity conversion and is used one of these new beasts and borders which is a it's a high water content border I guess that would be a good way to explain it so it doesn't need to have hydraulics separation there's no need to have a primary secondary or hydraulics separate on this because this is just a big wide-open space inside that boiler so you know there are examples of that out there that not every job needs to have a hydraulic separation so you can see come right out of the boiler right you one of our our disco air separators right up to the zones you see if I had a guess you boiler I believe it is it's better with PVC pipes I would say it is and there's the commentate removal device there it's just a high I don't look like the right way to describe is there high mass or high volume it contains you can see by the physical size of it that it's got a bigger boiler than just a little spiral tube ones that we we've seen a lot of the little walk on borders that we've seen in the previous slide so and that's what I think if you go read a little bit more about his description on his job he chose that for the specifically for that feature that it would be a boiler that he could tie right into the you know big steel piping into this whole gravity system and not have to use separation on it I see that he is using the ECM pumps and I'm glad to see that he did put a magnetic dirt separator so seeing that he doesn't have a hydraulic separation that those four different functions in one he's added a good microbubble separated they're a disco air separator and the dirt separated with the magnetic band across the bottom of it so he's got all his bases covered here different textures it's just him in his palm pumps up here with us with the magnetic function one of our relay boxes up there to run the pumps nice job Jim this is a job up of Wisconsin what we like about this is the installer that put this together has gone back numerous times and flushed down the magnetic separator to everyone see that it is doing the job that we told him it would do but he I think he actually did a video on some of these didn't remark when he blew it down and he kept a bucket under it so we could see how much debris is come out of this and I think he's been back there four times now over the course of his installation and blow it down he said the first time we had a couple inches of this black a sediment came out of the system if he blew it down the last time went back and blew it down he said there's barely any came out so it proved to him amazing that history on this was it was a large church compound in Wisconsin and with several different types of zones radiant fan coils all kinds of different types of tubing and there wasn't drawing some plans available for access for this contractor who wasn't the original in contractor and it's an old installation so high efficiency condensing boilers were brought in to this and and because of oxide ferrous oxide that had built up in the system even with purging there was still some remnant ferrous oxide that would continue building up in the system and those those boilers were going out on both flow and so that green magnetic separator you see at the top of the screen was added as they clean up the job if you will and you're right he didn't blow down over a course of a few weeks and got the system cleaned up yeah so that's another excellent application of the magnetic separation even though again he doesn't have UCM pumps that I can see in this drawing these are just a PSU type of motors but certainly we don't want that to be really in the boilers or any the other zone belt or anything else that might be in that system so this is another gravity system replacement here this one using the beastmen boil it looks like and it does have a hydraulic separator in this picture same installers that the previous one I showed you there with the gravity conversion Jim Becker in New York I don't know how he chooses which boiler to use it looks like he's certainly a beastmen guy but maybe the space here made it a better fit for this type of boiler those little one type the border as opposed to the bigger one so you can see one of our fill valves there with the gauge on it I just separate our air separation there again ECM pumps with one of our relay boxes powering up the pump so it's got it all covered again in a small footprint there I'd say there's probably what about four feet of dimension from you know with that missionary chimney is the brick chimney over to where the end of these this pipe again so did a nice job shoehorn and then there's an example what I spoke about earlier with a expansion tank that's mounted on its side instead of a you know up or down with the nipple connection there one thing to note in this picture that he's built a bypass around our film mill with our quick fill valves you really don't need to do that I know some guys like to get that extra flow through there and maybe a 11 13 gallons a minute they could get through a half inch palm out like that to flush out maybe in the old gravity piping and stuff like that but the is a festival valve that proposed about five gallons a minute so you can seize got both there he's got the bypass as well as the festival function on the coffee valve well he certainly will increase the the purge with that bypass added to le autofill but like you said in many installations you wouldn't have to do that but sometimes it's decided to do it just to speed up the process well I think guys like it when they're doing these old gravity systems because this house probably has like engine have two inch big size piping so you want to get a lot of flow through there you want to get you know ten so I'll get ones a minute through the blowout in rust and debris when you when you connect these employers and maybe that's why I decided to put the you know full Clos a bypass around it to give me a little bit more purge ability while I was going on this picture this was a job I met these people and I was up in Bozeman last year that did this this retrofit a couple things I like about the system they did really nice documentation system documentation so you can see he's got some air handlers here and what he's doing in this job here he's actually using the hydroseparator is on the loop field so that's a hydraulic isolation between the loop field and the heat pumps here so that was a little different application of it there but all the same functions and features applied to the to the heat pumps here as they would to boilers that he's getting as a air dirt and hydraulic separation between those devices you can see it looks like he's got some no clothes you just Weisinger there's some clothes setters in here some pumps up there pumping through the various heat pumps there and some buffer tanks down here to buffer those heat pumps so this is actually he said on the entrance to the wine cellar here you have to go by the buffer tanks to get into the wine cellar which is why they put it in such a nice look in the room like that's almost like a display room like the buffer tanks are on display just like the wine is in wine room in behind it there so I thought issue number nine probably spoke most of what's going on in this picture here as far as up you know piping up a heat pumps and using buffer tanks to to give you a little bit of a capacity to keep them short cycling yeah the heat pumps and again nice documentation on that so thanks to the Bozeman group for that back in Connecticut I like this one here this has got a little bit of everything in my GL in it it's got some backup mod convoys and it also has some evacuated tube solar collectors on the roof so this system has a lot of different flow rates going into it so again I just separate here make sure that regardless of which heat input or what distribution outputs going on he's got it all separated with the hydroseparator up there in the corner for this job I would say one of our solar issues probably number six because this was on combi systems how you can combine borders together with solar and heat pumps and different things so it wouldn't surprise me if some of those piping ideas or schematics and piping schematics might have come right out of some of the ideas that we put in the hydraulics number six on combi systems like that when we're looking at returned let me keep rolling here Mike up in the Ontario thanks for sending this in you can see a dual boiler system here so there's a wood-fired boiler there with a mod comm backup boiler on it here side vented interesting about this is a you can see this fin tube up here and that's thin tube up there with no probably no heat required this room is usually in there for a dump zone for these boilers so if this boiler was running the power went out and there's no way to shut the fire off instantly a lot of these boilers is he piped in with this bunch of thin tube up high like that so they've got a little gravity circulation through that to keep that boiler from overheating until the power comes back on and they can rant down get the pump going again and also went on the juicer fan that around those boilers so what else can I show this kind of a small picture it looks like he's got a dirt separator on the bottom there a mag separator with our dirt mags with the magnetic band that up there hard to see down there but I'm assuming there's some separations and air separation down at the bottom where he's tied with two different borders and together I think of tight space installations that I'm showing you here this is probably the tightest this to me looks like it used to be a storage closet because you've got the expect the brackets for some shelves that were probably across in here one point they said we're always the only place we can put in the Boyar can you squeeze it in here he's been an excellent job of doing exactly that so you can see we've got his boiler up here and this would be must account water module for the boiler in this version of the beastmen they don't have the combi built into it so inside here I think it's a flat plate heat exchanger so you can see domestic water coming in here getting heated and going back out so in this let's call this three feet of space I would guess I'm just drawing this but I know the size of these components he's got his boiler he's got his domestic water it's got his hydraulic separation this distribution pumping expansion tank is filled nice filling purge valves here in a couple spots and additional air vent here to make sure that the the color spa control if they have a name for this of metaphor this heat exchanger box that he's got in there has a little bit of a removal here and also he's got the air removal in this hydraulic separator so there's I'm getting better than that as far as getting it on a lot of a lot of eggs in one basket so to speak you know it's going to tell you about that again an entry from back and April of 15 is when this one was sent in to us ah not iron air help the scrap prices are up high when he did this job this is a friend of ours Curt up in Minnesota this was a church job and this was interesting this is a big church and somebody had gone in there and taken out the old I believe their cast iron boilers and retrofits and mod comm boilers into that but the system never worked properly they couldn't get a good handle on the temperature in different areas of the church and they're having also its air and noise problems so Kurt came in and basically did this it's just started all over the other guy just put the borders into the exists and piping system pumping and just didn't have a good hand on it so Kurt knew that he needed hydraulic separation to make sure that the boilers and the pumps got along well you can see he's got a row of CCM pumps there on the wall I just separate or just out of the bottom of the picture there and just cleaned up all the piping on it to make sure that he got slow through the boiler so we didn't have knockouts on the border Delvin heating problems in the various rooms because he gave his own pumps that were you know modulated or adjusted to the load and each one of those different areas of the church at this serve so this was a big win you tell me the fuel consumption even though the fuel consumption went down a little bit from the original change from cast iron but the mod come he said it got even better when they sorted out some of the incorrect distribution piping and put some better aerial into it made the system just that much more efficient by just you know paying attention to the details you know using all the information that we've given you on piping and making sure that you've got good microbubble remove all these systems to get rid of those noise problems especially when you've got piping that could go you know hundreds of feet down the you know mechanical room or something to get the different areas of that building you got to have excellent air removal you'll be chasing that error radiators for the rest of your life another one of our Canadian jobs here what I like about this job is it shows some of our threeway mixing though thermostatic mixing valves so what he's done on this job is used these are looks like the B and G burial pumps I think those are also ECM pumps this is a pump that you can actually I think it's got about a nine speed selection switch on it so what he's been able to do here is he's mix down the temperature to all these different zones different zones going out there and you can also adjust the pump speed so what I like about this picture is I'm thinking he was aware that the CV of these typical three-quarter one-inch mixing values maybe a three CV valve so there's no way you could have put one valve on this job and expected to feed this many zones going out to one so he is aware of the pressure drop going through that valve but he chose to use multiple thermostat mixing those even though some of these are requiring the same temperature he's made sure that he's not starving under this distribution fork low by going through you know mixing valve and then you can see in addition to the pumps here some of the Jones also had zone valve so he was able to tie the pumps and with the zone valves with the the ECM type of pumping and really get the best of everything in this in this picture here that he's got the ability to adjust all the individual temperatures as well as the flow rate on the pump and just really balance the system out with a you know a pretty minimal amount of components to do that another example of where you know this distribution going out could have been PEX tubing right off of the top if he's going to remote manifolds on that I thought the one that again that we did on zoning kind of answers some of the you know information that you might want to have on selecting these here hey been a good example yep yeah this is a on the left hand side he's obviously zoning with the variable speed circulators was often done up thermostatic mixing bounds on his last zone there which is on the right he's got his pump subdivided into further zones by zone belts and sometimes from a control standpoint this can be a little bit tricky so I wanted to point out that the we don't have it in this photograph but the CLEF II zone valve relay is in this case would be daisy chained attached to the zone belt so on pump relay they work in tandem basically you know daisy chaining and do basically Zub Zub zoning so primaries joining with the circular hitters and sub zoning with the with the zone belts all his part one installation one design yeah and that was one of the criteria that we set out to make relay boxes that was something that the installers the feedback that we got to the fields and make it easy so when we do these systems we've got pumps and zone valves that are going to be working together that you give us enough features in the box that you know that we can make those all communicate work together with one another so we did exactly that you'll see in some of these John's where you'll have multiple boxes on the wall that we might be doing some zone belted some pumping so California job always a challenge in California that they get wide temperature swings and some of these jobs so in this case here this system is both a heating and cooling via the slab there's also some air handlers in here too so a lot of the same things that you see in previous jobs here some of our zone valves ECM pump they're for the multiple zones of the job another ECM pump over here some slab zones going down there indirect tank for the domestic water and that's some of the pretty small pictures to see some of the detail there pressure gauge there so there you can see multiple relays on the wall there looks and some setpoint controllers maybe for the cooling function of it and that hydraulics we did the mist you know I'm not John cooling a couple years ago we get back to 13 I think okay there's in 13 that we did number 13 mission number 13 on hydronic cooling we're seeing more and more that some of its chilled beans some of them flat of course anybody that works at that knows to be aware of dewpoint conditions if you're going to try and do radiant slab cooling for example so this one here air county thanks for sending this and I like this all he did with this job is going and clean it up you know this was a job this is what it looked like when he walked into it and you tell the people you know troubleshooting this job to working on this is just ridiculous all these wires and connections were loose and its own home bells work some days some days they weren't getting going that we're opening so you just went in and just cleaned it up with some of our legal and own bells and here's an example where he embraced our press connections on his own Bell so you went to press connection now you might say well it could've gone like two packs but what he's done here is he's put isolation bells above these zone valve was probably one on the main trunk down here so he can isolate both sides of the zone valve if down the road for whatever reason one of the actuators had to be rebuilt or removed or something like that you can isolate it here in any transition to the text to be name there anybody get all so as you put that it looks like you did this with the Fugees hydronic head drawing program you put a little schematic of you know power system is a hose pipe and stuff like that for somebody else that might have to work on it so just a nice clean up job so some of the entries that we get sent to us you know we're not looking necessarily for all big trophy homes or big expensive commercial jobs I mean that was just you know the case of going in and replacing some zone bells with the what the coffee's you want to clean it up some wiring and piping so and another new construction is a condo project here with multiple boilers again you can see all the same functions here with the magnetic driven ECM pumps very soem pumps out here in direct tank over here looks he's got two filters and that's interesting that he's got two different fill systems for the different boilers there I'm assuming that their pipe together it's all one fluid but use a pipe nut there you'll see one of our disco air separators in this picture here she looks like a little bit in for a little bit air handler domestic hot water kind of a nice combination of components I heard an example of somebody had a lot of room to put all the stuff together of course looks like a fisheye view of it with a with the camera but certainly he had room to spread out a little bit here and now give him a little bit room for piping getting all those components and without the at the stand in the closet sideways to work on it like some of those previous forms now this is interesting here in this job that what he's done is he's put our air and goats separated right together with one another and just lands to flange them together like that we do make a combination device which is what I showed this picture over here to the right that would be both of these in one component that we've taken out you know some of the distance required here some of the HEPA by two components number one you could have put a combination air dirt separator in there also so we do have individuals as well as the combi it Bob that we have today with our last poll I think that might have been might yeah we do good timing that was my last slide so go ahead you got another poll let's do that and then we'll we'll wrap up with some questions and well you're talking about magnetic separation so maybe to get an idea from the folks out there about their whether they use or don't use magnetic separation devices whether it's a dirt separator or a hydraulic separator that has that function or a combination device so I'm going to launch this so the question is when do you include a magnetic separation device of any type on installations that contain an ECM circulator electronically commentated motor type high-efficiency circulator so on your designs or your installations always if you have an ECM circulator or only if the job is a retrofit or if you have the experience and already some circulator problem and therefore you need to protect that pump or just in general sometimes or never and it looks like always 30-some percent by far and then sometimes Bob and then and then and then if the job is a retrofit sometimes and I'm not so much if the circulator experiences problem so people aren't waiting for a problem basically they're either doing it based on the design or not and I got to tell you I was out in Northern California what is it two weeks ago now with a rep out there who happens to be a pump rep also and he said the wholesaler that were training at they said every one of their jobs that goes out with me cm pump just has right in the quote has a magnetic separation function because they are seeing issues with that and which comes back as a warranty claim of course the wholesaler and of course the rep and then on to the manufacturer so saying you know we'd almost give everybody a magnetic separator at our cost just to make sure it protects you know the pumps in there because it's everybody gets that call back the contractor the wholesaler the the rep and the manufacturer get too involved in a in a warranty claim on a pump that failed because of a magnetic particle that was pulled in there so if you haven't embraced that now's the time to start thinking about the magnetic separation especially when you use the electronic pump so I don't know if there's a couple questions I guess we're right at the time here but we could hit a couple questions if if there's something market jumps out at yes not I'll get back to the ones that you send in if they didn't get answers through the course it looks like we had over 250 people here today it was a great turnout thanks everybody but about I'll tell you of course it was a good point that came in from England from Christopher Flaherty you know in England the practice with magnetic filters is is really to protect the boiler on a return and and that's so much the pump really doesn't drive the decision and I'd say the same thing holds true here we asked a question when your system contains an electronically commutated motor type circulator but his points well-taken today's high efficiency condensing boilers are part of the system that has very close passages and as therefore susceptible to the build-up of debris and iron oxide and then cause the big problems like we showed in that commercial job in um in Wisconsin so it isn't just ECM pumps the use of that you'd want to consider magnetic separation is these other call it susceptible and somewhat expensive components and I think all the boiler guys out there they're listening probably would agree to that because of the warranty issues that can come to play when you have a boiler whether it's a big commercial a million Btu type boiler or a 100,000 BTU it's the same issue that could happen is that that iron oxide builds up and and it cause a problem so well that's true of every component means some of the pressure in the pen of balancing valves have very small passage raising them so anything that we can do to additionally you know get dirt out of the system was the magnetic separator uh you know one of our dirt cow certainly we want to see that that type of device it doesn't add that much cost over regular dirt separated have a magnetic function included with it so yeah there's no harm in using out any system certainly on the robonyan pipe systems and have a lot of value when you use me CM pump or not because we don't want that stuff in our zone valves are balancing valves that pumps our borders we don't want it anywhere really we want it out of the system and that's that's what we're trying to help you do is a quick and easy way of doing that by just pull the magnet out and flushing it out so yeah gun on the other question you want to call the day here yeah I think we've been answering them as with gun and sharing them so good questions that came in I think it struck a chord so I think that's the end of the questions for now and those that we don't haven't gotten to they come in afterwards we'll get to individually so so Bob back to you yeah well thanks and haida Scott and some of the people I know on the list I see a lot of my friends that have tuned in today and I definitely come back for a city next month and enter a Jody and Jerry on the border one in August so I guess I would say thanks to everybody and thanks again for thinking collecting and we'll see you in a month or so have a good summer bye bye