Controlling Pressure in Plumbing Systems

the broadcast is now starting all attendees are in listen-only mode hello welcome everybody to coffee with Colletti glad to have you on board and thanks everybody for joining us and also for support in Coletti so we're gonna do a little tag-team today Cody and I worked on this presentation together so I'm gonna do some slides and he's gonna do some and there might be a point when we're both kind of going back and forth so I think this will be an interesting topic it's certainly interesting for me putting it together it's a new topic for me as far as more of a plumbing topic and we've been doing mostly hydronic over the past couple years so let's roll with it and see what you guys think and gals think today you know what we're talking about kind of appears in a couple different issues as far as pressure and pressure adjusting and regulation stuff like that there isn't one specific issue on this topic but it kind of it threads through a couple different issues there so some of the slides that you'll see today come out of these different back issues of hydraulics we try and always incorporate some of that information in their presentations but that's where you'll find it so what we're going to talk about is pressure today and I guess for the purpose of this webinar a defined pressure is the exertion of force upon a fluid so basically we use pressure in the system to lift the water the static pressure I'll show you some graphs as we go along on this to get the pressure into the building up to the highest point in the building and also when you know faucets or taps are flowing we've got to have enough pressure to overcome the resistance and all the piping and fittings and nets so we'll talk a little bit about what the codes are suggesting and requiring for pressures what to do if you don't have enough pressure what to do if you have too much pressure so we're going to jump around a little bit but these are the topics that I picked right out of the uniform plumbing code the I have no code book and this is the 2018 version by the way it did change a little bit from the previous version the 2018 on some of the verbage and these these bullet points that you see down there and what they suggest for minimum pressure maximum pressure what to do with relief valves and also there's a little bit of suggesting there on water hammer what causes what to do so every one of those we're going to go into it a little bit more detail so I'll just keep rolling here so for a well system so most homes are either going to be most building though should say are gonna either be on a public water system where you just had water main possibly out in the street and a ladder line in your home and you regulate your pressure and do your building there now some homes like my own um I got my own well system most homes out in the country this is probably more common to have your own system it might share a couple homes might share under well but basically there's going to be a palm in the well or above the well it's gonna pop it out and there'll be a little pressure tank that the pump pumps into and that controls the pressure going in the building and now the way this works on this tank and this let's consider this a submersible pump down in this well casing here and so when that pump kicks on it's gonna pump the water up into the tank and it's going to store some water in this little this is very similar to a expansion tank on a hydraulic system where there's a bladder across this tank and as the water goes in there it pushes up against the pre-charge on the air there so you'll see what happens on this gauge when the pressure comes in the gauge will change and when you take water out the pressure is going to drop to a predetermined pressure where the pump will kick on again now most of the time those are going to operate around the twenty degree differential and it could be a pressure switch this switch right here that operates at 30 pounds kick on 50 pounds kick off you can adjust those you can buy different ratings I think the one I've got on my house is a forty pound cut in sixty pound cut out so then there's the spec on a typical I guess that's a square dbrand pressure switch that you had seen this one even has a little manual lever on the side of it so that's what's going to regulate the pressure coming in now what you'll notice on a well system is if you're in the shower and you're taking a shower you know that's the pressure is going to change a little bit so it's going to drop down until it gets to the point where the pump kicks on so you'll see a little bit more pressure fluctuation in a well tank system than you would on a main water line where you're going to have a regulator that pretty much keeps it at a pretty consistent pressure it doesn't drop as much as you might see on a well tank now here's a drawing that we found this is a maxim drawing that shows exactly what happens on a domestic water system and on a pressurized system so we've got the two inch main coming in you can see cold water going over these water heaters here and this is a what I like about this it shows all the appropriate components that you would have in a mechanic or an AMA system you'd have your mixing valve for your temperature mixing you'll have your expand and tank you've got your recirculation pump you'll see some temperature gauges some isolation valves in fact what I'll do here is that I'll talk on exactly the components that we're going to talk about today and you can see where they fit in a piping system where the correct placement would be as far as you know downstream to the check valve on the expansion tank so it can handle an expansion of the tanks T&P valve typically here for both temperature and protection for this vessel here a vacuum breaker so you can't pull a negative pressure on these tanks and implode and or collapse them if you uh if you drain them down so we'll go through here and like I said Cody and I'll kind of split this up talking about the different components and certainly type in any questions we got a couple people monitoring questions as you type them in so we can answer those as we go along hopefully you'll get to all the pre submitted questions within the presentation if not Cody and I will certainly answer all those via email to make sure that we we don't leave anybody out on the questions so here's what we know about pressure it takes just under a half a pound of pressure point 4 3 3 psi to lift water up a foot so if I only have to lift water up a foot in my building to get up to that elevation I would need point 4 3 3 lots of times people round that off to point 5 so you can do the math in their head a little bit quicker a little bit easier but that's the exact number if you're doing a design that you want to use so with that in mind if we had to go up 10 feet obviously we'd need four point three pounds of pressure to go up there so as we have a multi-story building especially a high-rise building we need to adjust the pressure so that the bottom floor going up has the right amount of pressure and we don't have don't run out of pressure before we get up to the upper floor so in this example here we're looking at a five storey building and let's call them a 12 feet per story and what that does makes the math come out pretty easy that you have about a five pound pressure drop as you go up that building so if you start the pressure here every story that I go up to 12 feet that I go up times the point 403 gives you that five pounds of pressure drop as we go up there we got some better graphs coming up but that's the number to know is that 0.4 33 is the number that's going to push that water up through the building so I don't know if you noticed on the code I'm going to show you that code again but we want to have at least 35-pound pressure if we're going to have like flush valves in a commercial building to make the valves work the codes are a little vague on what's accepted pressure it varies from different codes the codes if you're on the ICC or the UPC or there might be some requirements from a local jurisdiction that can have a different requirement on that or if you have fire sprinklers or something like that it's going to change but when in this example we want to make sure that we had a 35-pound minimum of every one of these levels here so that's where the numbers come for this example 80 psi seems to be the maximum I found in both codes UPC in the ICC that has a lot to do with the fixtures that we use shutoff valves ball and toilets have a pressure rating on them from the manufacturer and you don't want to exceed that or you could have problems with them leaking through or from the ballcock for example can't shut off tight against a higher pressure than that so that that would be the maximum pressure that we'd want to see on a building now I say that there's some exceptions to that and it would depend on the risers in the building you'll see a drawing of that come up here in a second where we're going up through the building and then were branching off at different floors but so there's the numbers in my five-story building if I start with 55 pounds pressure I drop five pounds at every floor so I still have the adequate pressure on the top floor 35 psi again counting at 12 feet per per level or per story of that building all right here's a little bit more verbage on the codes again this is a uniform plumbing code the IMO code they consider inadequate water pressure below 15 pounds now again if you've got flush ometer x' in the building that's not going to be adequate pressure for to make sure that those seal and shut off tight leaves probably been on add a urinal or toilet where you flush and it just keeps running and run on and run and sometimes that's an indication that the pressure dropped low or it's not pushing that that's a diaphragm and shutoff mechanism up so and I would say 15 pounds even in the residential building would pre be not much of a shower flow for taking a shower but that's the number that's out there so accessible water pressure again anything over 80 psi we want to make sure that we regulate that down I see see a little bit more verbage in there they say 80 psi but they say with the exception of the risers which I'll show you here in the next slide you know on a multi store a high-rise building obviously we've got to have enough pressure to get up to the uppermost reach and so those risers could be operating at higher than 80 psi then we'll talk a little bit about expansion tanks and temperature and pressure TMP valves how the expansion tank protects those and what the T&P valve does important if you're going to have any valve that can shut off tightly on a building where the expansion from the tank can't push back into the line that we have some type of a vessel in there to accommodate that increase in pressure and then water hammer we're probably all experienced this in the building over the course of time here is when you shut off a valve quickly against the flow you can get that pounding noise that you hear if the pipes aren't supported properly in a building you know you'll hear that banging and the pipes also now we talked about both low pressure and high pressure so if you don't have adequate pressure one of the ways that we can boots pressure these booster packs and again this is an engineer drawing here where we've got water coming into the system here cuz that's the suction side of the pump the flow switch to make sure that we've got water coming into these pumps and then these pumps will just boost up the pressure a bit low pressure coming in the line again you can adjust these pumps to whatever pressure that you want to have on the discharge side nice thing about these pumps now that we've got frequency drives and variable speed motors we can actually modulate the speed of these pumps based on what the demand of the building is so that makes it a little bit tighter control a little bit of energy savings on those motors also but often times you'll see two of them like this sometimes that's for redundancy if one goes bad it's on a building where you make sure you always have adequate pressure you might have one valve off and the other one can come online quickly one one fails or if you have to service one to the other and there's different types of pumps you'll see some of the examples coming up next and so this is the criteria when you have to size one of these you'll probably go to the pump manufacturer and say okay this is what my building requires this is my design kind of like the previous slide I showed you the design there and they're gonna supply or ask you for this amount of information here okay what's your suction pressure coming in you know what do you looking to have what size is the flow rates you need all that it's gonna have to be crunched into a program or into the you know the sizing of the the pump to make sure that you've got the right sized pump for the job and I thought these are pretty good examples of typical pumps that you see out there there's a looks like a small shell or well pump basically that's what it is but it could be used as a booster pump and someone they build these they can change this the number of stages that they put in here to change the capacity of that pump changed the motor change the size of the connection so these are really when you get into these larger sizes really our custom-built to the application you can see some vertical versions over here some of these you can see have a kind of a brain on them have the drive built into them probably a variable frequency drive or some kind of electronic drive and that pump to the vary the speed of it these of course all be stainless steel since they're moving potable water we don't want to have any rust or anything going that you would have with their yeah you know a cast-iron body pump now example is where you'd want to put a booster pump maybe you've got adequate pressure in the house for the fixtures and stuff like that but you might have a fire protection system that if that went off you got to make sure you've got adequate flow for the heads that are triggered off or another high demand load like oh I don't know maybe a lawn sprinkler system outside that when all the heads are coming on you got to make sure that you've got enough enough flow and enough pressure to maintain all that so these booster pumps you'll see used occasionally jobs and here's I'm not sure exactly what's going on this left-hand side here but this is a little booster pump but it looks like a residential application confusing for me as a thanks grandfather for these pictures by the way is you know almost looks like this is in somebody's bathroom and this might be a shower over here I'm not sure exactly uh now where this came from but you can see it's nicely insulating stuff and also I'm not sure why there's a pressure reducing valve in this pump but and what I'm trying to show here so there is the pressure sensor that would sense what's going on with that you can see a little bit of a well tank or an expansion tank there and this is a the variable speed pump again so it's gonna modulate based on the requirement of the demand in that building here's another one this is a fairly typical pump that I see on residential applications where they need a little boost in their pressures or Grundfos pretty much a plug-and-play you can see in lettuce and a suction and discharge line and in all the controls are built right in under the hood there so you basically plug that in and where you go so nice look and so if you have to have an application where it's a you know exposed or something like that it's a pretty clean looking pump so what Cody do the neck couple slides and then I'll come back and we'll probably banter back and forth throughout this so here we go Cody take it away and thanks Cody for helping out yeah no problem Bob thanks for thanks for having me on board here and appreciate everybody's time here today so yeah Bob talked about pressure and systems and what you need to get to the top of a building and things like that and and you talked about booster pumps and and scenarios where you might not have enough pressure or you need that pressure to for adequate flow for those high demand loads but on the other end of the spectrum let's talk about how too much pressure needs to be controlled as well and so here at Chloe we offer actually a nice line of pressure reducing valves and and again you know these valves are designed to take higher pressure down to a working pressure for your fixtures for your you know your laboratories your toilets your showers and whatever you're working with and as Bob mentioned for most codes you're looking at an 80 psi maximum and so if you are above that you need to you need to regulate that and get it down to where it needs to be so our flagship pressure reducing valve is you can see here on the screen is our 535 H we have it available in half through two inch size of this wide adjustment range from there you can see right there that we've got unions on both sides which makes it a great valve if you ever need to service it or pull it out for whatever reason to clean it out or anything like that the unions also allow us a wide range or wide variety of of connection types and so you've got sweat you've got press packs connections NPT speaking of packs we've got packs crimp and expansion as well there's a lot of good things there another great thing about our valves is that we have really low we've got great fall-off pressure numbers and so the thing to remember with these pressure reducing valves is that you're setting them to a particular pressure you know say it's 45 psi or whatever and that's going to be at a static condition and whenever you do start to get demand that pressure is going to drop off a little bit because you're not going to be able to maintain that exact 45 psi and that's what's referred to as fall-off pressure and so as you start getting more and more demand the fall-off pressure increases and and goes from there but like I said we've got a great fall-off numbers it's all in our technical literature if you're curious about it but it also can be locked with a screw on the top we offer jumper nipples in case you're setting up a building and maybe you want to flush everything out before before you get everything up and running the option for the pressure gauge is right there as well that's an MPT connection so that way you know you can put a gauge in there we offer it with them without really great valves that 180 degree operating temperature to another slide too but we're NSF 61 rated for the peas here and were rated for commercial hot which is 180 degrees and so if you are running into scenarios where you need to regulate pressure in a domestic hot water situation we can do that too for you this here is just a nice little glamour shot that we found on some of the social media from frying our mechanical from everything I've seen from those guys they do a great job it looks like he's in the process of adjusting it you can kind of notice and I didn't point it out on the last slide but we've got a big knob at the very top of that pressure reducing valve and right below it there's a setting window and so what you can actually do is you can see what you're setting the valve to as you're making the adjustments and so you can see there he's currently adjusting it it's between the knob or the setting window it's between about 75 and 90 and if you got your really good glasses on you can see the gauge is right about 80 psi so he's probably still adjusting that a little bit but it's it's a great way to get it done and it's a lot less a lot less cumbersome versus you know the couple of wrenches and trying to you know loosen up that jamb nut and having a gauge somewhere down the line but this is also a great slide to point out the fact that he's got adapters on there going from our female NPT to press connections and you know it's likely that this is probably just what the wholesaler had in stock but just remember that we offer these in impressed connections and thanks to Fran our mechanical for this great picture and what I'd add to that cart is you can actually turn this with your fingers it's not like some of the other brands out there we like to say gotta loosen the lock and have a crescent run Steve and adjust the thing there's no way you can turn those against that spring tension but that's the beauty that clef is at any point you can just grab that with your two fingers really and make an adjustment that's a great point Bob yeah it's it's really easy to adjust you know and and we do offer that locking mechanism in the cap too so if you want to get it adjusted and dialed in and you want to lock it down so that way you're preventing a homeowner or building maintenance guy from tinkering with it you can do that as well but you know we talked about booster pumps because you don't have enough pressure we talked about pressure reducing valves because you got too much pressure and and now we're talking about applications here where you've got both okay you've got this high-rise building say for example here 30 floors and and you need to make sure you have adequate pressure at the very tippy top of that building so that way they can use their sinks and flush their toilets as well but the problem is is you look here and you've got a booster pump they're pumping up to 180 psi this is a great example to where you know I think Bob talked about it earlier about how 80 psi is the maximum with the exception of the risers because obviously that riser you're gonna have to get that you know all the way up to the top of that building and so your risers gonna be anywhere I mean I've seen drawings where it's gonna be upwards in over 300 psi but you can see here what we've got is the building that's kind of sectioned off into zones typically five or six floors maybe a little bit more depending on the height of the building or the height of the floors but they're sectioned off into zones and and what you've got there is is say for example floors one through five are our one zone and you can see there how the bottom floor one is a 80 psi whereas floor five is 60 and you kind of work up from there and those five floor zone kind of scenarios and so you look at that and like I said you figure out how much that pump needs to produce a new section things off and kind of go from there so again typically five floors but you know prvs do not get back down on those lower floors that way you're not dealing with any issues with your fixtures now Bob talked about you know maximum flow you know some there are some manufacturers that only test so high higher pressure too can be a big issue for example when you're in the shower if you are using some of those low-flow fixtures and those water-saving showerheads you know north to 80 psi is gonna feel like you're you're getting an acupuncture treatment and it might be a little uncomfortable for you so you know it's one of those things where not only that save your piping from you know erosion corrosion and make sure all your fixtures work but but make sure that you're comfortable in the shower as well go ahead with the next slide there Bob and then you know same idea here to it I mean if you've got a source of water from the top of the building you can see here like the water towers and the the New York skyline there it's gonna be the same idea so you're gonna have that pressure at the top of the building and because of gravity you know that that pressure is gonna just increase as the goes down the building and so again at the bottom you're looking at 180 psi so you got a got to adjust for that so again five floor five six floor zones and and knock it down to where it's necessary and and get yourself going there so yeah and then to you know I talked about earlier about how our pressure reducing valves our capable of being used in domestic hot water applications so if you are using a single source water heater or a single source for domestic hot water in a building you know you're you're gonna have to be able to control that as well so again make sure your pee RVs are rated for that as ours are and and they're rated up to 180 degrees which is commercial hot for NSF 61 another great thing to mention on here we we you know Bob talked about recirculation pumps a little bit in the beginning I would really caution people in applications like this you don't want to research across the PRV and there's ways around that you know you could have a domestic water source her pressure zone you know there's other ways of doing it as well and I think this is actually a good time to mention that in September of this year our colleague Kevin in North America here and our other colleague Claudio out of Italy are going to be doing a great webinar domestic hot water research in high-rise buildings and so if you're curious more about domestic hot water research and these taller buildings that's going to be a great great webinar to check out next one there this here is actually our our cost fighter pressure reducing valve and and you can see here it's a little bit more compact thus we call it the pres Cal compact and you'll notice how there's only a union on one side we've got female NPT on the outlet side of the valve this valve is only available in 1/2 and 3/4 inch sizes so these are gonna be your typical residential applications or you know maybe it's a condo complex or something like that you know you're losing a lot or I shouldn't say a lot you're losing a few of those really nice features from the 535 h series you don't have the big adjustment knobs on the top of the setting window but you still have a great cartridge assembly that is made very similarly to the 535 H the nice a little bit nicer model or higher on the food chain kind of model you got the option with or without that pressure gage as well and then that Union on the inlet side can be you know same thing sweat press NPT pax whatever you decide this is a great valve I think the next slide here but I don't know if you have anything to add on this slide no I think you nailed it there that's doing great all righty well perfect this next slide here is just a nice little advertising trade advertising spots that we've done over the years we're touting that 533 H that press Cal compact on the right there as being the world's most recognized pressure reducing valve and and this valve is quite often counterfeit in especially in the Asian markets and so if you see anything similar to it with that kind of it's considered an incline pressure reducer where it's kind of leaning back a little bit there you'll you'll notice that there's a lot of similar designs and some of them even have our logo on them you're not gonna see them here but typically like I said in the Asian markets where there's a little a little bit less restriction on that kind of fun stuff but another great thing to point out in this these advertisements is the QR codes that are right in there Bob's circling one there on the screen QR codes are something that we are actually starting to introduce on a lot of our product and what you'll find when you order our product is it'll have a bright yellow sticker on it with that QR code and with that QR code you can scan it with your cell phone and it actually comes up with a playlist on YouTube and that playlist is going to be all the corresponding videos relating to that particular product and usually the first one is going to be what's referred to as our installation tips video and so you're gonna get somebody there that's teaching you best practices with the valve or whatever product the QR code is relating to and things to make your life easier so in case those instruction manuals grew legs and ran away or anything like that but maybe it's still got the box you can you can scan that QR code and get yourself going yep alrighty so this guy right here you know you we talked about making sure that you're controlling the pressure when the pressure is too high in your building and so when you're sizing up a PRV or a pressure reducing valve you know everybody thinks about sizing that around the maximum flow it's very similar to mixing valves as well you know everybody sizes it based on the pipe size and and what you got to remember is that these have pee RVs and it doesn't matter if it's ours or anybody else's pee RVs have a range of control and and you know you look they're bob's kind of circle in there our inch and a quarter model 535 H has a design control range from 5.3 to 34 gallons a minute and so when when you are designing these systems and you're putting these in place if you are putting that big 2-inch p RV on a system maybe it's a residential system you got to remember that there's going to be scenarios where maybe only one faucet is going to turn on and you you really got to account for that and so what we've got here actually is PR bees that are piped in parallel and we consider these kind of high-low assemblies and the idea here is is that the smaller pressure reducing valve is going to hand handle those low flows scenarios so as not to stress the the larger pressure reducing valve and so what you notice here is that the the smaller one is set to 70 psi and the larger one is set to 60 you know even with our pressure reducing valves you can do that high medium low kind of scenario if you do need to control across a broad range of flows which is pretty typical in a lot of buildings so just make sure again that your sizing based on maximum flow but you always got to consider the minimum flow requirements as well and then when you talk about pressure and buildings you know you can talk about scenarios like I said before where you're gonna have 300 psi and and there's typical ratios for inlets outlet pressure on these pressure reducing valves and and what Bob's underlining there is you're typically your ideal ratio there's going to be two to one and the idea there is a say for example you got a hundred psi coming into the building you've got to knock that down you know you don't want to knock it down any lower than 50 psi so that would be a two to one ratio okay but say for example you've got 200 psi like the drawing down here below and you start taking that thing from 200 down to 45 that valves not gonna be happy and and that valves gonna let you know about it and so it's gonna make a lot of noise it's also gonna wear the valve and the cartridge down quite quite a bit you're gonna run into a lot of wire draw erosion and things like that inside the valve and so if you've got scenarios where you've got high pressure in a building like this especially on the lower floors of a high-rise building you know don't be afraid to put these in series again so you're stepping it down in increments so like e in the drawing down there you're stepping from 200 psi down to 100 and then that second PRV is taking it down to 45 psi yeah I do believe this is my last slide so when you look at pressure reducing valve so you want to make sure that you're maintaining them typically especially in these larger commercial buildings you want to get these on the maintenance schedule you've got a nice picture here of one of our pressure reducing valves that it's got some pretty good gunk in there and so one thing to kind of make note of is that we have a screen that encompasses 360 degrees right around the cartridge which is going to be really good because you've got more more square area to kind of collect stuff on yeah so basically here you know we got a lot of screen to protect the valve this is where your problems going to occur if you get dirt in here the valves gonna see through and it's gonna overshoot the pressure that you said of that so in this example they had it set at let's say 45 pounds and they come back at an hour later and the valves up to 80 90 whatever the incoming pressure and it's because of the debris between this seal right here that causes it to go through there and now the screens going to get as much as you can obviously you can't make this to find a master we block it would plug up instantly so there's kind of a balancing act there and what mesh we use to give adequate protection and still not plug up with the solder flux or something you know that could completely plug up the screen so I think we got a pretty good balance on the size of our screen for the you know the job that we're trying to do and you can see down here where some of the debris is sitting in the bottom of the of the body there are two so and that's what I'll usually indicate it's indication of this as the pressure keeps increasing over what you've set the bail VAT and that's a nice thing about the CLEF you with the gauge on it that's exactly what that gauge can be used for is troubleshooting you know if you come in there and you set it at one pressure and you look at a few minutes later the next day or something like that and it's beyond the pressure that you set it at which you could still see in your window by the way I'm the valve that indicates that you probably want to take that apart and you know check and see if you got some debris teflon tape dirt I can see on this application here anything can get in there and cause that problem so the beauty of this valve also is you know right there is how you take this cartridge out and you can almost do it by hand it takes a channel locks typically because you got an o-ring seal up here but you don't have to take like 18 bolts out of the top of this regulator to get it apart and service it to clean it out or if you have to change a cartridge because something got damaged in here from a sharp rock or something you just unscrew it right here from the body and this hole cartridge can be just replaced so it's a really very simple valve to a clean or to maintain or take apart and check if you've got a something going on in there that shouldn't be going on in there all right to make a long story long let's um we'll talk a little bit about thermal expansion tanks next we're looking for time yeah I think we're okay so if you have a water heater and I'm seeming to do you should have one there it's kind of nice to have what's going to happen is when you put water in this vessel and you heat it up it's going to expand now most of the time this water can just expand and push its way back into the water main and you don't notice an increase in pressure on a gauge or the tank here what's happening more and more often as we're seeing backflow preventers on buildings either out in the water meter pad or somewhere inside the building the local jurisdiction might require that for protection on their water mains so if you have a check valve if you have a solenoid valve if you have any normally closed valve here what happens when this water heater heats up this is what you're gonna see right here in this little graphic over here we started 70-degree is that burner comes on and the temperature starts going up the pressure is going to start going up and if there's no place for that pressure to be accommodated you can see what happens here blown the lid off now you could in fact cause a tank to rupture or split a seam or a split or weld or something like that so we've got to be able to handle this increase in pressure as the tank goes up one of the things that will do that for you which isn't really what it's designed to do but the pressure relief valve here now typically on a residential water heater this valves gonna be 150 psi and 210 degree where it starts to relieve what will happen is if you get up at that hundred 50 psi they'll start to drip or seep a little bit like that if that pressure keeps going off a bunch of this valve is gonna open up there's just basically a spring in here that valves gonna open up and it's going to discharge a big stream hotter and it's gonna make a mess somewhere unless you have that piped into a drain so the valve will seep at first if you see a valve that's dripping on your water heater you see a puddle near your water heater you've probably got this condition going on where somebody's maybe added a backflow preventer or put a check valve somewhere out on the street that you don't know about your pressures going off your valves trying to protect this vessel that's not really what we want this valve to do this is really a safety we won't don't want this to be a maintaining valve to you know take that pressure and by the way you're wasting water when you do this also so a better way to do that is put a thermal expansion tank in there and what I found is when I started searching through the cones more and more the codes are requiring this even if you don't have a check valve you know you don't have a backflow preventor you know you don't have a solenoid or some valve that's normally closed they're asking you to just include a thermal expansion tank on the on a water heater and there's a special tank made specifically for domestic water expansion because obviously you don't want the tank rust and then here's an example one and thanks to amp troll for permission to use this by the way this is called a thermal instead of an extra one in the amp troll brand the hydronic ones the next role in the domestic water version would be called thermal and what's different about this tank a couple things usually it's a 3/4 connection instead of a half inch connection up here and you can see there's a lining inside here so the lining if this is a steel tank obviously we don't want the steel touching your potable water here so they'll put this lining in there that keeps the tank from rust and then from you from getting rusty water but they also put something in there for bacteria protection so it's got a little bit of a liner with some kind of a chemical or something built in it so you don't get bacteria or anything growing in there the other thing that they're starting to do is put little turbulator 's in here so if water goes in here and water doesn't come out that water could get stagnant over time so when water flows across this tank it kind of induces a little bit of flow in here so we're kind of I guess changing or switching that water from time and time so don't try and use just a regular hydraulic expansion tank it you'll get rust number one you won't have this protection in here and also you want to have the the device in there the little turbulator the little orifice in there that's inducing a little bit of flow through here like an expansion tank on a hydraulic system you have to check and adjust the pre-charge most of these will come out of the box at 45 psi and the reason for 45 is because that's what most regulators are factored preset I know ours is and our competitors I'll set their their pressure reducing that 45 psi so the tank is pre-charged that same pressure now if you are going to change the pressure in your system obviously you want to adjust this pressure accordingly too so one thing I'll say if you want to see what happens to a water heater tank that just keeps running the burner keeps going and there's no expansion to relief vessel element excellent video here from the Mythbusters where they exploded the tank from a long distance away they and a tank that ran away and didn't have any relief on that or any protection for the expansion hey Bob I think I'm back yeah perfect well I just wanted to point out too that you know you talked about backflow prevention devices or check valves or a normally closed valve but just another thing to think about too is that pressure reducing valves can can cause a need for thermal expansion tanks as well because in most cases those pressure reducing valves won't allow backflow depending on the inland outlet pressures and things like that yeah that's a good point some of the battles out there have a bypass that lets water go backwards like Cody was saying but if your pressure Healthcare's fire you can't push against pressure that's you know higher than what's coming in so that's not you know an absolute protection you really want to you know consider putting the expansion tech and I think like I said some of the codes are requiring it now so see if I got the talking pump man yeah so one thing that I know is that happened where I was working years ago and Park City Utah so we started getting calls all of a sudden out of the blue that people's water heater reach the bells are starting to drip drip everything maybe there's a bad batch or relief valves out there and what had been happening is the water department was going around and replacing the meter yokes out on the street we have meter pits there and they were putting in meter yolks with bf these backflow preventers built into it to protect their potable water system and they weren't telling the homeowners or at least the homeowners weren't aware of that they had to go in you know put an expansion tank on that to prevent that relief valve from popping and these are just some glamour shots of what we've been talking about here as far as expansion tank there you can see usually the colors a little bit different on them to you know if you're using the amp troll brand it's typically a grey tank in the hydronic and it's usually this beige color tank on the the thermtron the domestic water tank it like I say the connection is usually a larger size than the domestic tank than it is on the thermal expansion tank for hydronic and there's an example the pancake style expansion tank on the hydronic side of this pretty nice setup here looks like we've got two different boilers a gas fire electric boiler backup for the low rates probably up there on the power so where were we yeah again some more well that's it was shoehorned and there wasn't another example of relief of what I would also caution about on the relief valve two other things actually is you want to have this discharge to put on it so that if this thing does go off someday I'm either on purpose or by mistake then it discharges down the floor that doesn't blow out on the wall in fact that should go down to a drain or discharge something we're safe I guess I would say that it's not going to cause damage inside the inside the building inside the home especially in the closet like this with all this nice woodwork around it and the other thing on this valve when you when you go to replace a belt like this you got to know the size on this little tag it's going to tell you the pressure rating of that Bell typically 150 on a domestic tank it's going to have the temperature 210 degrees just under boiling and also it's going to have a BTU rating on it so you need to know what the BTU rating on if it's a gas fired on the burner there or the you know do the conversion electric elements here and make sure that that valve the size for whatever the burner can produce for the discharge that valve now most of the residential ones start pretty big I think it's 690 thousand so they're defined a domestic tank with a higher BTU capacity that but more importantly on commercial buildings where you want might have a big burner or high output water heater like we showed on that very first slide you got to make sure that you're putting the right and meet bail bond there for the application and over here on the right again an expansion tank I don't want to get into the right side up upside down issue that's a controversial thing it seems on all the chat rooms these days about proper orientation of the tank but we're talking about that maybe on some future date with the with the tank manufactures and you can see one of our mixing valves here so they're operating this tank at a higher temperature they've got a mixing valve to mix it down to a safe temperature a vacuum breaker here we'll talk about that in the you know upcoming slide here this is a really nice installation even got some unit strut and their support and all that really professionally done so thanks to Greenpoint for that nice work and sharing it also all right a little bit more about the temperature pressure relief valve I think I talked about that but again it's called a TMP valve because it does two functions temperature and pressure these need to be checked from time to time I've seen it where they'll I'm up and they won't go to pull the lever on a man with this charge it's kind of lime shut I think theoretically the manufacturer wants you to test these yearly pull the lever on up make sure that they discharge what you're gonna find if you do test them sometimes you pull the lever yeah they discharged but then they don't shut off and you replace it it so just plan and have him one with you if you're gonna start pulling delete bells and check in a for discharge there's a good chance that might not shut off you're gonna replace it anyways and then the other thing usually when they go off on high temperature they won't we'll see receipt there's a thermal element that comes off the back of this that goes in there and since of the temperature this needs to be in the top portion of the tank you can't have the thermal relief valve up here it needs to be into the vessel which becomes a challenge as you see here in the next slide when you have a tankless water heater where you put the relief valve so there's the T&P valve on the domestic tank there another example here now this is a little bit of you want to confuse you here but these are what's called a reverse indirect tank so the tank capacity is actually the boiler water and then inside here there's a bunch of copper coils so these tags you're gonna see two relief valves on it you'll see one during the failed that protects the the pressure and the time typically the 30 pound really felt like you would have on the boilers and then up here you can see where they've cut one in on the top that's the TMP valve that's protecting temperature and pressure in the coils that are in the tanks a little bit different application but that's why you're seeing them multiple valves on this and this tank here cuz it's a reverse indirect tank and there's the the tank protection valve um water hammer arrestor so we've got ten minutes here we're in good shape alright so this is what happens anytime you've got water flowing this is called dynamic flow here now water is moving it's not static pressure that we would read with a gauge here the waters actually flowing through about and if you shut that valve off quickly what happens is you get this hydraulic shock it's called sometimes called elastic shock because when you stop water quickly this is what happens crunches up like this because that's a pretty good graphic of it and when that happens you can get a really high pressure surge so this valve let's say we were coming in here at what 80 pounds pressure and you've got a quick-acting valve that could be a solenoid valve that could be valve on a commercial dishwasher there could be a long sprinkler valve that could be a valve on a fire sprinkler or anything that could shut off quickly cause the shockwave and look what happened the pressure here so comes in at 80 we shut this valve off quickly we got this hydraulic shock and that thing spiked over 400 psi 410 PSI spike notice also that it does this here and this is why I think they call it elastic shock where it actually goes up and it actually drops down below that pressure that it was a set at coming in here let's say the 80 pounds press you can see we've got some low points on here and it's going to do this a few times like that until it stabilizes back out so this um this shock had been absorbed through the piping and a building or through the whatever this is connected to on the other end can absorb that eventually but thanks to the folks up at Sioux chief for this a good example of what happens when a valve closes quickly and by the way you can even do that manually shutting the ball valve in fact where you'll see this happen sometimes is when the firemen are running this fire hydrant out on the street and they put the wrench on that they crank it down quickly and everybody on the street has a relief valve pop on their water here because they just set up a big big shock wave in that main which then you know it goes right into your house and can pop the relief valve on your on your water heater on your fire sprinkler or something like that so we want to be able to address this we want to be able to maintain you know the constant pressure we don't want to see this spike when a valve shuts cough closed cuz everybody has a valve like this your wash machine has a valve like this even an ice maker has a solenoid valve in it and by the way Sioux chief does make water hammer wrestlers all the way down to a quarter inch tube size that you put on the back your refrigerator when you hook up your icemaker so on that solenoid valve shuts off that little mini arrestor on there handles that shockwave and another place you're going to notice that if you get a call from a customer they say you know I got a drip coming out of the back foot preventer that you put on my boiler here or you go and they say there's a puddle on the floor under it you get there there's no water coming out of it looks fine now what happened well that same water spike that pressure spike can cause this valve come off at seat and you'll get a little bit of water it'll just spin out for a second until that hydraulic shock wave dissipates so if you happen to be there at the very instant that a valve shut off really quickly in that building you might see this little cylinder the little piston here just shuffle real quick and it's gonna sprit spit spit no do that time and time again and eventually you lose the seal in here and this thing just drips and leaks all the time most of the time that's caused by the pressure pressure high pressure fluctuation now a water hammer Ruster can handle that I know what some of the other plumbers do is they'll put an additional check valve right here upstream of this so if you do have that shockwave that first check valve a swing check valve will just clatter once or twice take a dissipate that shock wave before it before it hammers your backflow preventers so if you go and you're replacing backflow preventers on a job over and over and over again it's probably not the backflow preventor you probably got a water shock condition going in there and so here's probably a really good graphic explains what happens when quickly close this valve and that shock wave done with this water hammer arrestor it dissipates that so think of this as a gosh just almost like a shock absorber on your vehicle it's got a piston in here and it's got the seal in here and so there's an air chamber little air space up here separated from the water here and so it just pushes that up there this would probably bounce up and down there until that shock wave was dissipated now occasionally a plumber will make their owners say well I'll just put a 12 inch piece of copper pipe and put a cap on it and what will happen when this fills up for the first time you know captivate a little bit of air in the top of that that little stub out that you put up there well what happens over time is that you'll lose that little air bubble in there that air will you know get absorbed back into the water and your air bubbles slowly but surely goes away and now this is just solid water and it's not going to give you any you know protection from that water hammer because your air bubbles gone so this is really the best way to do it and obviously these come in a lot of different sizes depending on the application so either contact your rep or the manufacturer and make sure that your size is a proper she's probably a classic example of that obviously a commercial dishwasher if you can see it here but a solenoid valve here quick closing valve and you can see two water hammer rust errs and I'm not sure exactly why maybe they had that one sighs at the wholesaler this guy wants to make sure that he's positively got the water hammer a size properly to handle the you know this valve shutting off quickly so yeah you could stack them just like you do PR bees or anything else or you could just get a larger single size but that's what it would look like and by the way these water hammer restrooms really want to go as close as possible to where the water hammer is being generated because I've had people say well can I just put a water hammer restroom next to my backflow preventor they said well it would do a better job if you put it out where that water hammers being generated ethyl solenoid valve which is what he's got going on here really close to where that balance gonna shut off so he's gonna catch that chalk that hydraulic shock wave right here close to the thing if I put this back at the where the water came into the building now I got that shock wave continuing down through all my piping and I've seen piping actually blow apart from a shock wave like that when they shut off a main and torn or made jumps right on the street because I shut off a 300-pound main quickly and just bang that that shock wave through the whole system all right makes sense I think it's probably about the last lesson we've got you were looking pretty good on the timing so I think I showed you a similar slide a little bit earlier you can see there's a nicely pipe system thanks to I can they do a lot of nice work I see their work on Instagram all the time it's just look how nice and clean and neat everything is even use the pro press I'm gonna pressure relief valve tube here but so pressure relief piped down to the floor maybe even down to a floor drain there's a thermostatic mixing valve to protect the homeowner from high temperatures if they're running this tank out and you can see here's the addition of a vacuum relief valve well some codes require this additional valve and again that'll have to be a SSE listed valve for the application but it's it just allows there to come into here so you can't again sucker a negative pressure of vacuum on that tank and have it collapse inward actually is what it does the other thing that can happen to a gas fired type of water heater if you don't have a valve like that you get that negative condition it can actually squeeze the flue pipe in the center close I thought I had a picture that in here so it's not just the tank itself will collapse but you could actually collapse that flue pipe going up through the center of the tank and now the burner kicks on and you've got a an issue with flue gas is not going up through the pipe properly and possibly spilling in the room and having a SEO issue so that's where this device gets some added in for that protection I don't see him that often to be honest with you but I see pretty much every application at those folks there do that they put one on there maybe their local jurisdiction is requiring them or the inspector that inspects that job all right so here what I wanted to show you so okay so let's say you've got a situation where you suspect you're getting the pressure spike well how do you know that unless you can be there at the exact moment that it happens so I threw in here a couple examples of gauges that you can put on that can record pressure over a period of time this is a little data logger Dixon they used to make I used to have a chart one they had like this round piece of paper with a little pen that was on it they would record just like a seismic graph of the pressure going up so you could put a recording device like this on it in fact probably this one's even Wi-Fi compatible that you could you know watch this remotely I'm kind of old-school I've got this valve this gauge right here that I build up I called this a lazy hand gage so it's got the regular pressure gauge needle right here the black hand and then this red one you turn it you can see the little thumb screw on it turn it down against that one and what it's going to do is let's say this goes up to 50 pounds of pressure and you get a pressure spike obviously it's going to move the red needle and the red needle is going to capture that high pressure spike so if you go back the next day or a week later and say gosh it went up to 200 pounds well you got a water hammer you got something going on or if it goes up there and stays there it could be your pressure reducing valve was leaking through so this is a good way to capture information when you can't be there to catch it in the act so to speak and there's you know obviously a lot of different brands and types out there yeah it was a it's a pizza plug and and what you've got inside of that plug is a basically a rubber gland inside of there and so typically you're gonna want to get that needle a little bit wet or you know lubricate it in some fashion and you can shove that guy in there at that point you can you know you can have a gauge typically most year your needle will type temperature probes as well will fit into the Pete's ports as well and and this will allow you to check pressure temperature you've got an example here in the middle of one of our balancing valves and you can actually take differential pressure across that as well so that way you can check to see how much is flowing through that particular valve so and again thank you guys very much for your time if there are any questions that we haven't answered during the webinar today we'll make sure to get back to you in the future here probably either today or early next week and you guys have a happy Thursday and have a great great day