Filling Purging and Maintaining System Pressure


Caleffi Hydronic Solutions


Filling and purging,hydronic system,Mark Olson,system's piping,components in a fill system,a small residential and large commercial fill procedure,fill valve open,Caleffi North America,Caleffi Hydronic Solutions,Coffee with Caleffi

the broadcast is now starting all attendees are in listen-only mode hello and welcome to coffee with kalevi my name is mark Olson our topic today is filling purging and maintaining system pressure in a hydronic system I'll be your presenter today and through the course of the next 40 45 minutes I guess that's how long this will last I'll be using schematics and actual installation photographs to help convey the topic at hand that being filling purging and maintaining pressure but those topics should be looked on with a even greater list of things to do when it comes to commissioning the fill of a hydronic system so I'm gonna touch base on each of those as we walk through here today but let me just mention them briefly firstly pressure testing the system we have assistant has been put together we want to make sure that it is sound mechanically from a holding pressure standpoint purging out any solid debris that's our first first word of the first time we use the word purge chemically cleaning them to remove any oils and greases and even scale for older systems next up is to drain and rinse the cleaning solution from the system it's important to get those chemicals out of this system and then ready for fill fill and as we fill ideally we want to purge as much air as possible out of the system as the fluid is coming into the system next is pressurizing the system as well as pressurizing the expansion tank we'll talk about that and then if any inhibitor is desired adding that and then maintaining pressure now we're going to talk about as far as maintaining pressure three different ways of maintaining pressure and we'll walk through each of those examples towards the end there okay pressure testing so our first step so we had the system put together it's tight at least we think it is this pressure test before we do anything so you can pressure test using air you can pressure test using water either one will work but we advocate air whenever possible why because if there's a leak it can be you know quickly repaired no sense of no need to drain the system and dry it out especially if you are using sweat fittings for example but you can use water just make sure that if you're testing in cold climates that you don't have the potential for freezing and off to the right there you can see a little fitting and they point to it here a simple Schrader valve that can be made to put into a nipple to put on your purge port a quick access for your compressor to get in and test the integrity so the steps would be well first of all make sure you close off all the areas where air can escape so including the caps on your automatic air vents and on top of your automatic separators close them down tight as well as any purge ports now your PRV outlet suggests plugging that out I say temporarily because you want to reverse that process when it comes time to firing the system on and now you're ready to to compress the system now what do you test - well if you don't have a specification we suggest 150 percent the rating of the PRB so if your PRV is say 30 psi you might want to test to 45 psi or 50 psi okay and hold for 15 minutes anyway maybe up to 30 minutes if your system is subject to is very hot or very cold temperatures and you want it to stabilize after you filled the system compressed say 250 psi if it's if it's going to be cooled down that pressure might decayed a little bit let it stabilize first and take a look at it and you want to wait 15 to 30 minutes to make sure there isn't any further decay if there is it you're good to go if there is you need to go back in and try to find out obviously where those leaks are and dishwasher detergent solution in a spray bottle can go a long way to adding so being a tool for you to look for those telltale bubbles indicating a leak I know on a suspected joint that is leaking okay so we've tested the system it's good now from a pressure standpoint and time to flush out any solid debris I stay solid because we'll get into liquids in a second solid debris so this is obviously it's important for retrofits but it but new systems too it's not uncommon to find we look at the left side it's a picture of a new system basically that's been purged and you can see the remnants of shavings from copper if you looked down into the bottom that white bucket and then on the right hand side obviously an older system that's had the you know the sediment that's settled out and you'll get scale and corrosion effects that will be basically in your system that you want to get out so metal chips shavings even castings and you'll find dust of different types insects and and the like here is a photograph from hotrod Roar indicating even more things that lurk inside as he says on the left hand side various types of sealants cutting oil and right hand side shavings of from different types of piping materials whether polymer or metal is found in even new systems so from a piping arrangement standpoint when we're speaking about flushing and filling for that matter there's a couple of different ways to go you can see two schematic if you will segments here but what they have in common between this one and this one is we have a port of entry our fill port we have our purge port and in between some method of blocking off so that we can control the flow of fluids as we would like up through here up through our part of our system back down and back through here the difference between this one and this one is this is a check valve and this is a ball valve they both work equally well as it relates to filling and purging okay and we'll get into some schematics about the entire system but the idea here is that we might not have just one set of film purge valves we might have a more complicated system that might require several of these pairs and you want to divide and conquer if you will those type of systems isolate the rest of the system fill in purge a part of the system get that done and go on down the line now when it comes to flushing debris the velocity needed in a pipe is about five to six feet per second average pipe velocity to do good job of in training and burping that debris out of the system effectively so as an example a one-inch pipe will require anywhere from 13 to 17 gallons per minute approximately just to push things along okay now before I leave this slide here some manufacturers such as clef you offer a fill purge valve that's all one piece which is convenient we offer them in smaller sizes I believe it's up to one inch but other manufacturers have this type of approach as well now the question might be okay five to six feet per second is what I need what is that in gallons per minute well online calculators such as this could answer the question real quickly for you you know you want five to six feet per second you have a one inch pipe and you can play around with the flow rate and you can see that 13 gallons per minute through that 1a inch pipe will give you the the need of velocity in order to purge the system of debris okay so cleaning the system is next and and we do this because oil and greases can survive even heavy flushes okay so you can push the solids along but the the the greases and oils can stay in place and you don't want those in place because you want them you want them to not react with any other chemicals that might get added one and number two they're just not good for though even the water if it's a straight water system to mix so you want to get rid of them and examples of sources of oils and greases thread cutting oils as we saw earlier residual soldering flux machining oil and the like now many manufacturers for their cleaning solutions if you will also are formulated they formulate their cleaners to also remove scale and here is a section from a flat plate heat exchanger and you can see the effects of scale as well as debris that has built up on the inside of this heat exchanger basically plugging it ok so older systems are subject to this such as this system over here with the flat plate heat exchanger you see off to the right and so you want to take advantage of the cleaning process to so get rid of and dissolve any scale so your steps in cleaning would look something like this we have our our cleaning chemicals this is roll Mars version okay and we want to have some means of pumping our cleaning solution into and back out of our system and so pumping cards such as this one from Coletti do the job and so we first start by putting our cleaning solution of the concentration required or desired in the pumping cart we turn on the pump we have our valve ice closed off here so we're going to send flew it up through here and back around now when it comes to cleaning oftentimes faster flow is better than slower flow and so to help assist this pump that's down here in the cart to send flow through the system quickly you can turn on your system circulators and speed the process along for example now the circulation time in cleaning manufacturers typically will say one hour so one hour cleaning older systems longer obviously even systems have been quite scaled may require up to even a week of circulating a cleaning solution so when you're done done cleaning turn off the pump and then open up your valves and gravity drain the cleaning fluid into pails and you want to get as much of the fluid out as possible of these cleaning chemicals if you're going to come back in and later on after filling the system add inhibitors some manufacturers the clean cleaning chemicals can be compatible with the inhibitors and maybe there isn't as much of a need to get every drop of cleaning solution out but it's always a good practice to try to get as much out as possible and use compressed air yep to help you do so and blow it out just as you would say winterizing your house or cabin for the winter ok now we're ready to fill the system and if the question is what do you what are you going to fill it with you might want to fill it with a glycol solution for antifreeze you might to fill it with straight water so if you're filling with straight water the question is is the water available on-site from the building suitable for fill is it sufficient quality and a quick test using a TDS meter such as you see of the Coletti one here being demonstrated it also does pH testing as well but when it comes to water quality for fill TDS is your main measurement pH is lesser so because in a hydraulic system pH values tend to stabilize and so we're looking for TDS as total dissolved solids and that's a measure of how conductive your water is okay and vice-versa so some manufacturers of componentry such as a boiler or a heat pump might indicate that for example they don't want the hardness of the water to be greater than seven grains and translate it into parts per million I think that's around 1700 120 ppm and so anything less than 100 20 ppm say it would be probably sufficient for that system if the critical component is the boiler in which oftentimes it typically is alright if you have a measurement of 400 parts per million or something like that now you have some sufficient you have a large amount of dissolved solids in your water that either if it's hard to us to kind of scale out on your heat exchanger or if it's some other dissolved mineral it could at a minimum increase the conductivity and the rate of corrosion within the system especially if you have any ferrous components such as iron pipe okay so if your water quality is is sufficient let's start with is sufficient the the pressure in order to fill the system may be suitable sufficient right there on-site no need for a pumping cart but if not use a pumping cart and there's many available in the marketplace here's the the collective hydro flash pumping cart little giant big systems such as an engine driven system here like purge right are also available to the market now for smaller jobs pumps of 1 6 to 1/3 horsepower typically are sufficient even a swimming pool pump which you can get easily up to six hour 2 horsepower can be used okay now when you fill the system many systems are pretty simple in fact you can even fill them at a very slow rate and not have any risk of air getting trapped anywhere just because of the design of the system there's no buffer tanks that could trap air there's no bending of pipes that go up over back down where air can accumulate in and the like and but other systems aren't quite that simple and so the idea when you fill is you want to fill and a sufficiently high enough flow rate that you kind of minimize any trapped air pockets in the system and where you suspect Arab pockets can be trapped in the system easily is an ideal place to put an automatic air vent so as an example in the top of a buffer tank or say in a high-rise with your risers going up several floors and then branching out to various emitters at the top of those riser pipes would be an ideal place to put an automatic air vent an automatic it's Rovere that otherwise would be trapped other places such as you see here this radiator it doesn't look so good at a minimum they have an automatic Evanson on the top of a radiator right but radiators typically have manual airman ports the clip it makes manual air vents that quickly can purge any remaining air and top of the of the rater off now before I move on from this slide I'm going to talk about the right side to but any air that's left in your system after filling okay and you're ready to Commission this system well well we'll end up becoming absorbed by the water and and as it does the makeup water will come in replenishing that okay that's fine and dandy but you're bringing in more makeup water okay so let me explain air in the pot air up here your automatic air separators are going to do what they're going to get rid of any gases in solution okay and that's done by heating the water up the bubbles coalesce they get pushed out and as water loses its dissolved gases it becomes hungry for more and so trap pockets like you see in the top of a radiator ultimately is going to be absorbed by the water the water is going to displace the trap pockets and but we've brought in more makeup water and a lot of times we want to minimize in fact always almost in fact we should always minimize any makeup water okay off to the right here is a manual air vent that also works automatically and it's called a hydro scopic air vent from Coletti it's great in these applications where you can both manually burp any air off and then turn it clockwise and it works automatically by way of swelling discs that are stacked inside of that air vent if you have an interest you can find more information from us online on how that Airmen works okay now we're ready to fill all right so we see in this diagram here our same fill and purge port arrangement and but in this case our water quality is poor and so we might want to demineralize it in which case we see a hot rod over here demineralizing a system using the same arrangement you see in the scatter schematic over here so we're going to going to use the pressure that's available from our mains our water mains in the facility run it through a hose into the bottom of this demineralize urquhart and there's several of these available in the marketplace including cliffie's as you see here as the water hard water and also water laden with any other dissolved minerals such as iron as the water goes up this demineralize err will pull those pollutants if you will out of the water and the exiting water is completely demineralized basically mmm distilled if you will it's has no dissolved solids and now we're entering that into the system and we're filling the system through a demineralized cart okay now if you don't have sufficient pressure to do this and you want to boost the rate of fill especially for getting rid of any air you can first demineralize the water into some other temporary holding reservoir and then or a pump cart and then use the pump cart to fill to fill the system okay and here's an example of that process this is a larger commercial system and we can see these guys have they put the system together they've pressure tested they purged it and now they're getting ready to fill and what they're doing is using a demineralizing cart to to build up a supply of water demineralized water of sufficient quantity so that when they get done and get ready to fill the system they'll use the pump cart here from clappy - at a high rate fill the system as well as yeah basically to fill the system okay okay so now we're ready to let pressurize the system now we've filled the system now we had to bring the pressure up we'll talk about why but before we go any further before beginning your pressurization process and in your filling process for that matter make sure your PRV is unplugged as that reversing of that process we talked about in a second or third slide okay and you've been air vent caps loosened and your separator captured Lewiston because now they can work automatically and as water builds up underneath them and it gets pressurized the air ahead of them gets perforate out of those automatic air vents and your expansion tank should be charged it's pressure should be charged before you connect it up to the system meaning if you want 40 psi in your system pre charge your expansion tank to match that 40 psi okay why is this important well let's say you want 40 psi in your system and your expansion tank comes out of the factory pre charged to say 15 psi and let's say before you have pressurized your system filled and pressurize your system you spun the expansion tank and connected to this system opened up your isolation valve between your expansion tank and the system all right and as you pressurize the system you also were pressurizing to expansion tank okay the system will come up to 40 psi but what you have done now is you've basically disabled largely the function of that expansion tank it has the the acceptance volume if you will is minimal the amount of expansion and contraction available in that expansion tank to accommodate the heating cycle as system heats and cools it doesn't have the ability to absorb those potential pressure changes and as a result your pressure will change it will fluctuate up and down and may be excessively soap recharged your expansion tank before you connected up to the system okay an accurate gauge is important and if you don't fill your pressure high enough for the boiler to be happy the boiler can go out go on boil or lockout okay in the Nexus of field pressure on the other hand can trip your relief valve and that's not fun for anyone your pressure relief valve and your boiler or wherever it is in the system spilled water all over the floor customers don't like that obviously either do contractors have enough attend to it okay so now we're going to pressurize our system it's filled and we're going to now bring it up to the pressure that we desire now what we want to we're interested now in static pressure not dynamic dynamic pressure is what what happens in the system once a pump turns on so our pressure is dynamic in that case we want to set our pressure the static pressure of the system and our goal is to achieve at least five PSI at our highest air vents okay and five psi gives us enough buffer for the inevitable slight changes in calculations and stuff I pre psi is a good safety factor there's 10 psi okay yeah it typically is but you want to make sure that you don't go below zero because if you go below zero pressure basically slightly vacuum if you will then your system now becomes an open system and air can come in through those open air vents and air separators into your system and that's what you don't want to have happen okay now keep in mind that for every foot of water height column it's equal to point four three three psi so as an example on the left-hand side here we see 10 feet of water column generates at the bottom of that column four point three three psi so that takes us to our first method of pressurizing a system and that is using the pressure available in our water mains sending it through a backflow preventor and a fill valve to pressurize a system and here's an example we have a contractor down here he use a Coleco to fill valve we got the backflow preventer right here so our water mains comes in through the back foot fermenter through the fill valve and out into our system okay and our goal is to achieve at least 5 psi at the highest air vents in this case we got air vents setting up here maybe so many levels above the mechanical room alright and if we have a 30-foot vertical height difference between these automatic air vents and where he is filling at then the pressure that he's going to want to set his automatic fill valve to is an easy calculation 30 feet here times 0.4 3 3 psi per feet per foot plus 5 psi safety factor gives us 18 psi so the contractor just takes a screwdriver dials in 18 psi in advance on his automatic fill valve here opened up his valve and it quickly goes into a fast fill mode and then all shuts off automatically at 18 psi okay pretty simple now this if you haven't seen the collectio auto fill valve before it's pretty popular in the marketplace and here is a performance chart that we did just to convince ourselves that we have a pretty good valve we took the Caliph a auto fill valve here and in green is the line okay and what we're what we're measuring is flow rate as a function of the system pressure and then we're doing a comparison of the Coleco to fill to a major brand in the marketplace doing the same and that's indicated by this blue and fuchsia colored line now wires are two lines well unlike the kalevi automatic autofill this type of pressure reducing valve has a lever and so during the early part of the filling process the lever is flipped so that there's basically a straight-through fill of the through the pressure reducing valve it's like the pressure reducing valve isn't even there and at some time a contractor has to come in as a system is filling and put it into pressure reduction mode which slows down the flow rate dramatically but it will cause it to shut off automatically as well but it's a manual process the long and short of it is our test was done with a 30 psi in that pressure so coming into the valve is 30 psi okay and we set the pressure on the autofill to a 15 psi as we did the competitor okay and you can see as we started the fill process to collect the autofill was at 5.3 gallons per minute versus 3.4 for the competitor and as the system filled and pressure built up zero two four six and ended at the 15 psi you can see at all times to collect the autofill was significantly faster and filling even a actually is 50 percent faster so it's a long way of saying it's a set it and forget it type of valve so the configurations that cliffy makes this auto fill valve is in several different configurations the valve itself whether it's a half-inch valve or a three-quarter inch auto filled valve or in combination with backflow preventers of different types a dual check type backflow preventor a testable reduced pressure zone type backflow preventor both 1/2 inch and 3/4 inch so back to the double check type backflow preventor and the autofill here's a cross-section of this product this is the auto filled portion and this is the backflow perversion proportion it has an internal screen which is important because they need to breed it comes through here and gets through the backflow preventor i doesn't have any chance to cause a problem with the diaphragm up here it's set it and forget it adjustable setpoint with tops we saw in that earlier slide and if that needs servicing this cartridge just spins off pretty easily an optional psi pressure gauge here to measure the system pressure is assistance filling has become more and more popular and an integrated shutoff valve down here in the bottom of the valve the backflow preventer is a dual check atmosphere event type rated to or approved to a SSC 1012 and its third party tested and certified for low lead meaning NSF 372 standards now here is that same backflow preventor a little bit more colorful of a photograph and this this was to convey the issue of water hammer now I know home water hammer can do a couple of things and one of them is it causes the backflow preventor to leak and how does it do that well let's talk about how these backflow preventers work all right when we have a system that is being filled okay that mains pressure coming from this side closes this piece this shuttle here if you will and the shuttle is being held open by this fairly loose spring doesn't take much pressure so the first thing happens that this shuttle transfers in this flat washer over here mates with its mmm call it the edge on this side basically giving us a watertight passageway straight through the valve through each of these check valves into our fill valve and into the system okay but what can happen with a water hammer is it can cause this valve to chatter a little bit just just very momentarily back off its seat and if we have any type of debris that could in that process gets get caught in here maybe a small grain of sand from that point forward we can get slate dripping of a backflow preventer so we always advise don't send it back in it's working just fine it just needs to be cleaned out as hot rod is showing how he did it here in his shop quickly it can be taken apart and cleaned out with its Union connections etc now to prevent that back from the water hammer to begin with many many wrestlers or shock arrestor can be used to reduce that hammer effect let's take a look at an installation photograph of a loop backing up of a auto-fill combo assembly we can see it down here from mr. Dwayne verdict of Ohio I submitted on kalevi excellence and so we can see what he's doing if we can study this we have water coming in here mains coming down through our back of a mentor and into our autofill and up into the system okay and we can see that more than likely even though we can't see it on the photograph he probably has an expansion tank connected over here which is a common practice both the fill valve an expansion tank connected under under the bottom of an air separator doesn't have to be but it's it's convenient and then on the backflow preventor being drained down per code within six inches of the of the floor nice job from mr. verdict now sometimes people will fill the system with an auto fill combo all right but the water quality isn't sufficient for use and they will on-site demineralize the system so this is Jim Peterson of Cardinal heating and air conditioning a contractor not so far from cliffie here he was featured in a magazine article and so he's taking advantage of the head produced by the system by the pumps in the system to create the flow needed to after he's filled the system and it's now got hard water in it he wants to now demineralize it he runs those pumps creating the differential pressure to send flow up through the demineralize ER back into the system so basically is scrubbing the system of hard water now the question is okay he leaves and make perhaps there's some make up water which is going to be what hard so Coletti offers in that cat in that situation it autofill combo but in this time in this case with a demineralized cartridge in between so it has the same resin inside here as it does here it just it takes care of any may requirements for the system so that as the system goes on and on and on you have if there's any makeup water it is treated as well okay autofill combos that have a higher degree of protection type baffle for vent are called a asse 1013 now not 1012 1013 these are reduced pressure principle type backflow preventers here is the photographs of the assembly and in a cross-section of what they look like they're half inch from Coletti 1/2 inch and 3/4 MPT and I'm going to put I'm gonna emphasize press press is becoming more and more popular on all of our products most of our products have press connections up to 2 inch and so we offer that also in this arrangement integral shutoff valves over here and unlike our competition or much of our competition the air gap for the drain is included down here now a little trivia for you in Europe they would call this a tundish first time I was in a meeting and they referred to a tundish I thought they were talking right but it's what we would call an air gap and these also are third-party low led certified to NSF 372 now this is another this is our 3/4 inch cheb a SSC 1013 backflow preventor i'm not going to go through the details of this we'll save that for a later webinar we're going to have an expert on backflow preventor technology as a guest later on in 2018 on coffee with cliffie so be on the lookout for that and speaking of backwe prevention we found it was someone humorous that the american backflow prevention association has it even their own comic book so we thought that was a quite novel ok so here's an example of a schematic let's take a look at this we got a few things going on here so they give you kind of the the groundwork here so we have a a air to water heat pump over here okay so we're converting or taking the energy from the air in this system converting it and sending it as a water as fluid into the building ok now this is going to be glycol it's going to be heat exchanged so this is our like all loop okay over here we have our backup or our system side okay and so we have a buffer tank and we have probably things going on down here here's our auto fill assembly here but notice the generous usage of fill and purge valves here and here here here train Bell down here on the buffer tank okay and so we'll talk about that but let's say that we're going to fill the system so firstly over here we have our glycol loop well it's a pretty straightforward system not too many places where air to get caught in so a simple little fill purge arrangement like you see here we could we could fill here and then purge here so this is pretty straightforward and pressurizing accordingly whatever the spec is for that side of the system over on our water side here you can see where the Installer has put an isolation but of purge valve here and a purge valve here whenever you have sediment a large amount of sediment in your in your system and you want to purge it you don't you want to try to minimize that sediment or debris going through your critical components perhaps it's your pumps air your heat exchangers there's a very tight passage through those heat exchanger you don't want to clog them up with with junk so the contractor his process for filling and purging might be to isolate these valves right here is isolation valve and basically purge in this direction okay preventing any type of debris getting pushed into these critical components the tank might have received a lot of sediment and so he might want to then also purge here and out here to push any debris that's settled into the bottom of this buffer tank okay and over here he might have a radiant system or a secondary that has second as several zones now how do you how do you feel in purge then well the idea is to divide and conquer so I'm going to take this radiant manifold here as an example being driven by this pump and what we want to do then is we want to take advantage of all of the isolation valves mounted on the manifold itself and one loop at a time purge and fill it so we would start off with this five port five circuit manifold closing off four of the circuits as well as the closing it off from the system close these valves off take our pump pump into one side and then drain into the bucket here until we see no more bubbles if we're feeling and then we turn the pump off close those off open another one and we just go right on down the line that way we've maximized the average pipe velocity through each of those circuits minimizing the chance in the air bubbles to be left in our radiant system okay this takes us to maintaining pressure method number two okay number one was using the mains pressure on-site going through a backflow preventor and a fill valve now you might not have the ability or desire to go use the water mains so you can use what's called hydronic system feeders and there's at least mmm I don't know two or three four of these on the market at least brands there's two of them good companies we see a hydraulic system feeder over here on this job up in Moorefield Ontario this happens to be a chicken farm it was submitted in aanchal EFI excellence or meant brendan gleeson okay so it's disconnected the hydraulic system is disconnected from the plumbing side and the pressure is maintained by way of this hydraulic system feeder these have a pump and a pressure switch built in so if there's any drop in pressure in the system any type of call it makeup needs the feeder will sense that by way of the pressure switch kick on the pump the pump will pump more glycol mixture into the system and keeping your system pressurized and here's another version over here from California up in the other side of Canada on a job submitted by Colby O'Neal on kalevi accents this is up in Saskatoon the more the higher you go up in North America obviously the more prevalent glycol systems are because of the cold weather and these are two examples from Canada using these hydraulic system feeders okay because they need glycol the third and final method we'll talk about is maintaining and probably not as prevalent of the fruit as first to in fact I'm almost positive is using a second expansion tank okay let's take a look at one of those installation so here we have a hydraulic system here is our main expansion tank okay as we would always use but what's been done here is a second expansion tank has been added the second expansion tank before connecting up to the system has been charged with fluid in this case water goes to the water system but it could have been glycol to 80 psi and then between the expansion tank and autofill valve to maintain the pressure in the system just as the mains would do as well as a pressure gage just to see how much pressure and that we're maintaining the 80 psi over here and say this might be 15 psi over here controlled by the auto fill valve okay very novel way of doing it if you don't have the ability to have mains or desire the ability of mains pressure water onto your hydraulic system this is another way of doing it okay now a couple of last slides air-vents refrain from purging water out of air vents why it loses the protective air cushion and you can get some debris up into the needle valve seat area so let's take a look at that this is a cross-section of an automatic air vent in this case kalevi you see blue here is the water and white is the air question I'm referring to okay and the way in this valve is in a closed position meaning there's no air passing up through here I can tell that because if air bubbles were to accumulate on top of the air vent the float would drop with the increased depth of the air cushion and then the linkage would open this little needle valve and because the systems under pressure the air will get burped out okay that's all automatic air vents work but this finely ground needle valve a very shiny surface here with the o-ring is very important for us from a reliability standpoint so if you were to push remove the cap and push this little valve right here you can do that you can cause this valve the burp you would push all the air out with the water behind it and if you have any debris sitting up here which we'd like to protect from the needle valve it can get up here and cause the valve to it will still work just fine but you might have remnant debris up here which causes the valve to weep and no you don't have a defective valve you have some debris that's got caught up here sometimes by way of burping the air vent so we say don't do that unless you absolutely have to okay now we talked about chemicals earlier in inhibitors and collecting offers a cleaner and inhibitor treatment kit basically it's sold with our very pops that are dirt mag magnetic dirt SAP separators you see a photograph here and this is an aerosol type of chemical kit it has both a cleaner and then an inhibitor and it's injected into the system by way of a garden hose type connection like we have in the bottom of our dirt max so a very popular way of now adding chemicals you see more and more manufacturers and we don't make these chemicals we these are Romar and we advertise as such very proven very high-quality producer both cleaning and inhibiting chemicals for the hydronic industry do see before we get into the remaining slides here back to Kevin if you've got any questions for me coming coming in or have been submitted hey Mark can you hear me perfectly yes we do have a we do have a few questions how about this one how do you keep the pressure in a geothermal system with antifreeze considering the wide swing and temp hmm okay very good well the ground loops of a geothermal system is a closed system just as on the other side of the heat pump it's a closed system exposed to wide swings in temperature as well and on the on the system side you would use an expansion tank to maintain that pressure so on the loop side we advocate doing the same having an expansion tank sized appropriately for the volume and the temperature change is expected in your ground loops placed on on the system and thereby stabilizing the pressure that he's alluding to in that question okay great there's another question here does a heating system with 50% propylene glycol have a special startup procedure due to the high viscosity what what about that one all right well certainly 50% glycol is going to have it's going to have two things it's going to be more dense than water and it's going to be much more viscous thicker so outside of that as it relates to filling I can't think of too much different other than you need much more pumping power to deliver that average velocity at purging velocity that you want in a system to in train air and and so it's basically needing more horsepower to get the job done as I see it okay good thanks here's a good one I like this how important is it to use soft water in system filling and flushing how important is it okay good question there's nothing special about using soft water as it relates to flushing it doesn't have any special properties that aids in carrying away debris and so from that standpoint I wouldn't advise software to water to do that now if you are planning to have your final fill you fill the system with soft water then you might find it more convenient to use soft water in order to do your your flushing and and so in that case I would advocate doing so no question might be well I'm going to use soft water but is it a problem to flush my system with just tap water basically hard water if you will and the question is that the answer to that is you're typically going to be okay you're going to dilute that software so so small slightly to make much an effect if you do a good job of making sure the system gets drained before your final fill okay good thank you here's another one I think you may have covered this but how to remove air from difficult loops for example maybe a poorly designed or installed loop poorly designed or installed loop okay well I think the best thing to do is take advantage of any ports that are on either side of the area that there is entrained air meaning you want to minimize any flow restriction and in other parts of the system and thus maximizing the ability to to flush that air out as bad as good I can good of an answer I can think of without there being specifics of the job that enter into the answer so that's that would be my advice and I guess it goes to point out you know good design on the front end is important for making sure that entrapped entrained air is is minimized okay good well here's one that just came in how do you use the hydro fill to fill a system with glycol in it assume 35 percent glycol so so how do you use the hydrophilic you're going to use glycol so this is what the question is referring to and this is coletti's demineralize ER and so firstly when you use glycol if you don't if you have concentrated glycol and you're mixing to 50/50 you want to make sure that the water that you're mixing it with is is demineralized water glycol wants demineralized water it doesn't want to have any additives that can impact the characteristics of the chemicals in that glycol okay so the way you would take advantage of the hydro fill and using glycol is that you would just say you needed a hundred gallons you'd run fifty gallons of water through the hydro fill here fifty gallons mix it with 50 gallons of glycol that has your 100 gallons now at 50 percent concentration and now you need a means of getting it into the system you can use one of several flush carts if you will available in the market including clevy where now you can you can pump that glycol from so you pour the glycol into the flesh cart and then now with your system already you know tested cleaned and drained you can now fill your system with glycol and the other point I want to make though along those lines is sometimes it's ask can i take old glycol you know or compromised glycol it's been in the system I want to clean it up and I think I got some hard water mixed in with this can I run that glycol through the collec demineralize err and well you could run it through but it's not going to do the job and so if you got bad glycol there's nothing you can really do once it gets terribly bad but to replace it completely okay thanks here's a good one this just came in from Tim on the Saskatoon glycol feeding slide can you go back up to that that picture of the project that has some the question is it shows an auto fill valve on the line out of the tank to that system why would you do that when the glycol feeder can control the pressure right here is that the Saskatoon slide I think so and it does look like a pressure reducing valve it's not an auto fill but it might be someone else's pressure reducing valve and yeah that's those mm-hmm without talking to Colby and I'm just going to hazard a guess here if there's a need to have redundant pressure control for example if this is delivering if this is set to do if he wants hmm 15 psi in a system at all times and this is generating something north of 15 he can say 20 set this at 15 psi and now he's going to be able to accomplish using a pressure reducing valve to stabilize the system with this makeup package that would be the only thing I can think of unless that perhaps might not even be a pressure reducing valve good question oh nice nice eye it looks like a good eye and I guess that glycol fill system has a pressure switch and so maybe it's just for safety or redundancy I don't know it could be redundancy I don't see it would hurt I'm not sure if it's needed but I guess we'd have to talk to Colby yeah and the the the question about the 5 psi is that a static you know at the highest point in the system is that a static pressure or is that with the system running you want it with static you wouldn't want to put cold water in and do that you wanted at room temperature water and it's a pressurized now the 5 psi is just basically giving you that added safety factor above zero that you want to make sure an automatic air vent is going to vent air out effectively having said that if you think about a system let's go back down to we could take any system here that's probably not a good one but I never been in the top of your system which is what we're talking about so you see in the second somewhere is if you have your primary side of your system working it's not even going to see that up there it's going to be completely separated of any pumping effects on the primary side ok so I'd say in in most cases the urban might not even know the system in many cases they were might not even know what the system's out or not but we're talking static right okay I think we have time for one more now this one I don't know if we have the answer but let me read it when pressure testing with air won't an ambient temperature drop cause a pressure drop in this system which might look like a leak in the system is nitrogen a better means for pressure testing so the point is would cooling off during that 15 to 30 minutes that we referred to as the time to watch any pressure decay if during that time the ambient air that you use for pressure testing is subject to cold cold in the air as a result contracts and causing the pressure to decay then well once the air I guess the point would be that air one secuence it cools off at that cold now cold temperature it should stop it shouldn't continue once it comes up to temperature at stable temperature and it won't take long for air to cool off if it is subject to such cold temperatures so I would not advocate using any type of gas other than air okay well I don't have any more questions mark unless you have anything else we're at one minute after one so anything else you can think of before we go yeah I looked at a question that came in earlier as regarding glycol feeders about someone getting requested to have to use glycol feeders or pumping packages but with a large enough pump for an initial fill that the system is that a good idea and let's go back for the viewers to understand the question a little bit better so from here all right so the question would be should these be over sized with should these have larger pumps so that in addition to being able to maintain system pressure they also can be used for filling the system to begin with because these don't have very large pumps I think he's referring to and I would say that that might be overkill it would be kind of a one and done type thing because now after having put that system in and filled it you have a very large pump probably at a large cost that is never going to be really needed again you're not going to require a large pump so I wouldn't suggest that that would be a good idea okay let's see here's one more another one is okay how do you detect a bad diaphragm tank how do you detect a bad Dyer friend Hank okay so so an expansion tank that's having its diaphragm start to to die one of the telltale signs would be you on your pressure relief valve on your boiler because your diaphragm is bad it's now going to start it could even break if you will and thereby you wouldn't have any protection from temperature swings so during a heated heating cycle your pressure could rise to the point where your your PRV could begin leaking which would be a telltale sign that you better check your expansion tank another way of checking too would be to check that Schrader valve and if you have air coming out you're good but if you have water coming out you know just press that little button on your Strader of LF you have fluid coming out then water coming out then you have a bad tank perfect good question with that thanks Kevin and team and everybody have a good rest of the day and we'll talk to you again soon bye-bye