Fluid Quality and Its Consequences in Hydronic Systems

the broadcast is now starting all attendees are in listen-only mode well hello and welcome everybody and thanks for tuning today this is the the kickoff of our 2013 calculus clef series and we've got a good lineup of the first six ones already listed online and I think it's going to be another interesting lineup for us today I've got a presentation that Jeff is going to help us with I've known Jeff for years he's a longtime member of the our PA we've been a friend and he's a friend of the industry writes for different magazines he's got a new book out that we'll show you at the end where you can go to to to buy that this I think is probably one of the biggest and most overlooked issues in our industry is fluid quality I mean I don't think a lot of people know what they should be doing or how they should correct problems with systems so Jeff has tons of experience in this he's been doing this for years not only in the hydraulics but geo systems and probably some solar systems so it's more of a stealth type of issue it's not something like a relay with a wire off that you can find to diagnose and fix easily it's something that you know sometimes takes years to present itself but there's a few little things that you can do on the front end with the systems when you start them up it can avoid a lot of problems and that's what Jeff is going to just going to tell us about today so just tell us a little bit about your background and what you do and what you like to do and a way to go well certainly Bob I want to thank you and the folks at khalessi for helping to put this webinar together from my standpoint I got into the industry as a ground water geologist and my focus was towards the geothermal side of the industry because this takes us back into the mid nineteen seventy and we were all looking for ways to avoid the increased cost of foreign oil etc and be more energy independent so early on I worked through graduate school with water chemistry and geology was an associate with the National groundwater Association working on various studies with them and working on publications and involved you thermal heat pumps that involved into manufacturing and then finally into operating my own business and assisting other contractors with do assemble projects so I'm pulling together perhaps over 35 years of experience and I like to present that experience through two good stories in hopes that those who follow us will be able to avoid some of the problems we've encountered and improve their profits along the way so that's in a nutshell for right now but shall I move on and try our first slide yeah and your experience I mean you do big system so you work on like University it's not just a little residential but I mean you I think you told me once you've looked at thousands of systems over your career from you know a little residential all the way up to some of the biggest universities and stuff around so yes yes we have residential systems up to several thousand times right well yeah I'm excited I know I redid presentation last year that I sat in on and that's what triggered this whole thing and take it away okay well we want to start out talking about dirt and air they really do matter neither one of them are friends in a closed piping system it doesn't matter if it's a boiler cooling tower or a geothermal system those are all closed piping systems and the chemistry of the fluid that circulates in those systems will determine the longevity and the service and maintenance of those systems require for their lifetime unfortunately not everyone is as a good background in in water chemistry and a lot of specifications are written that they be filled with potable water and from my own experience there's a wide variety of chemistry that might be considered as potable but that doesn't mean they're they're acceptable for use as a board or fill or as a geothermal system fill so the best way to maintain happy customers and prevent corrosion in new installations is to use a inhibited antifreeze products and also use distilled or deionized water is a system flush and fill solution all too often like I said specifications may state the fill solution be potable the minerals and a notable water it can be hard it can be soft can be a low pH or high pH and still be considered potable that all of these things have a dramatic effect on the tendency to promote scale or corrosion within a hydraulic system probably first of all in this corrosion issue would be an item we talked about called the galvanic chart or the authentic scale we have noble metals which are very resistant to corrosion there at the top of the scale and those with the items such as graphite gold silver titanium stainless things that we think is being immune to relative corrosion and then we have minerals that are more metals that are very easily corroded at the lower end of the scale is ink being one of the most easily corroded followed by aluminum tin-lead feel iron copper etc as you head towards the middle and when you have two dissimilar metals mixed in a solution you can always set up a galvanic or a battery cell so in this slide we have a penny tied to a digital ohm mirror voltmeter and galvanized nail and they're both sitting in city water and we have a voltage circuit there that's eight point seven five volts wherein the electrodes are transferred from the zinc coating on the nail over to the copper penny and we see the same type of battery so exists inside our hydraulics so there's your galvanized nail and the electrons move from the nail to the copper penny when we started with one of my class programs at Hocking college one of the questions well what happens with with these solutions I said well let's set up a lab experiment can we did 40 different sample containers we experiment with distilled water deionized water well water city water we used inhibited propylene glycol as an antifreeze we used methanol which is a very common antifreeze used in some geothermal systems not that it's necessarily potable but it's often used and we wanted to see what reactions we'd have with different types of water so here's an example of an inhibited propylene glycol mix 20 percent of deionized water the sample remains clear after six months of shelf time the steel wool in the sample shows no sign of rust or deterioration here's a similar sample of propylene glycol again this is 20 percent mixed with well water and what you're going to notice in this well water solution is a heavy layer of sediment at the bottom of the container you can see some white sediment on the steel wool sample also in the steel wool is starting to show some signs of rust and corrosion inside that sample so what's happened here is that the mineral content in the well wire has complexed itself with inhibitors and the entries causing those inhibitors to precipitate from solution and rendering that propylene glycol as a corrosive solution now it's no longer protecting the metals in the system corrosion and here we find a sample that is 20 percent methanol that's racing alcohol in deionized water and you can see the amount of corrosion in there on the steel wool sample the accumulation of sediment in the bottom of the jar and some staining on the sidewall of the container whoops back up here sorry and then here is a sample of methanol 20% in real water and it could just as easily be city water which has more minerals in it similar to the well water in many instances but this sample shows significant signs of rust and deterioration after only six months shelf sign there's sediment in the bottom the wall of the sample jar is so obscured it's hard to see within sight anymore and it's unfortunate but for the vast majority of installations that we may encounter we find that the antifreeze is mixed with city water or well water from the site that the installation was made at and these are the conditions that are existing inside systems they're the systems or the mechanisms that are leading to corrosion of ferrous body circulating pumps and other ferrous metals inside those systems a Jeff can arm up and ask question now on the ethanol is that because there's no inhibitors in the Methow nothing all compared to the the propylene glycol that seems the glycol ones lasted better but they they don't put a lot of inhibitors or chemicals in the methanol that's typically used in a Gio system or that just off the shelf shelf but no that's that that is correct the vast majority of the methanol filled systems that simply say that the methanol is racing alcohol added to water on-site there's no corrosion inhibitor in there you've got the hardness minerals that exist in the original water fill if I tell a story oh this will take us back into the 1960's and 1970's there's a fee for BP with Ohio and they had a gasoline mix called so high Oh with ice guard and the ice guard was actually methanol added to the gasoline because the methanol would easily mix with water in the gas tank and prevent fuel line Freeza unfortunately during that same period of time that people were religiously using Ohio with ice guard they were experiencing leaks and fuel lines leaks and gas tanks fuel pump failures and carburetor problems and it all related to a very corrosive issue between the methanol and the ferrous metals used in constructions so carburetors have evolved for using ethanol in our gasolines but their metals and our gaskets and seals and so forth are made to help withstand those corrosive actions these days but it was a good lesson from way back when and methanol still is quite corrosive when mixed with tap waters and used as an antifreeze solution all right I hope I answered that yeah no that's that's um that's what I wanted to hear I mean even if the methanol was mixed with a good quality water like a deionized or demineralized water it still doesn't have the inhibitors and one of the inhibitors from what I understand that they put in propylene glycol is to lock up that hardness and to lock up some of those bad things that in the water that you blend it with it's not to protect the glycol to protect the water that they're blending in at the jobsite so unless you're buying premix where they've mixed it at the factory with a deionized water the water that you're putting in the chemicals in the glycol or in there to lock up some of those problems and you just you don't see that mask cause even the fluids you buy specifically for Geo systems don't have which I probably they're less expensive and people use them because they don't have to put all those ingredients in there that right you know drive the cost of the glycol solutions up that's that's exactly right because you can buy uninhibited food grade propylene glycol at a substantially lower price then you can purchase the inhibited propylene glycol and there are some sources out there now that have a I want to say it's an FDA rated inhibited propylene glycol and they work quite nicely but again those are products that are either mixed Factory with deionized water and shipped to the site as a premix or must be mixed at the site with the deionized water they're not intended to be mixed with tap water from the site this is an example this happens to be sort of a sideways view of an atmospheric type geothermal flow Center showing two pump bodies with let's say the initial stages of advanced corrosion from a chemical cocktail made up of methanol calcium chloride it's an unfortunate circumstance that a second subcontractor in the process of replacing equipment opened the loop and decided he'd prefer to work with an open flow Center did not realize that there was calcium chloride in the original system it was just a clear fluid and talked it off with methanol to increase the antifreeze strength of the system so now he had calcium chloride which is corrosive by its own nature and becomes extremely aggressive when it has oxygen contacts in an atmospheric flow center and mixed with methanol at the same time and this particular flow center chewed up I believe it was six circulating pumps in about a two year period of time just from corrosion and failure and the corrosion products would get in around the wet rotors and lock the pumps up solids so there's quite problem until it's not corrected and correcting the problem and flushing the loop with DI water several times over to get it cleaned out and then replacing that fluid with an inhibited propylene glycol solution to take care of the problems it's very expensive it's not something you want to have to go through oh and this this is a great example there may be some people listening in on the conference who have incredibly soft water this is water that still stays slippery after you're showering so I can't get the soap off it's so soft this happens to be a circulating a bronze body circulating pump from a system with very soft water it was on a hot water recirculation circuit and the dome had a famous hot water tank and a stainless preheat tank because they knew they had some corrosive issues with the water in the area and I thought that by using the stainless they could avoid problems with replacing repeat water heaters well then the next shall we say Lisa noble material in the system to those things with water tanks was the bronze pump and the copper piping in the home and the customer was complaining about green stains and their sinks and tubs and so forth I really didn't take too much stock in until I got a call that said we've got water on the basement floor and it's coming out of this Q ephemeral machine and we found this the circulating pump essentially totally eaten up on the inside of the pump body solution for this problem was to install poly cellphone high-temperature plastic container in the recirculating line for the hot water system and put some magnesium rod sacrificial anodes into it and so here you see a couple depleted sacrificial anode rods with their center cores on the left side and some other rods in the process of being depleted they were taken out of that canister once those sacrificial anodes were installed in the system the green stains and the sink stops and we've not been back to replace any pumps and thank goodness there haven't been any perforations and the copper lines in that now but it was a matter of having an aggressive water supply a very soft hot water so we can say can dissolve a metal let's see the solution rate doubles for every 10 degree increase in temperature so if you start out with 50 degree water you increase it to 120 degrees you've increased the solubility of metals in that system many many times over by the time you get it to 120 degrees and if you've got a little pump there that's running 24/7 that just accelerates the problem so in those situations where someone might be circulating water for a hot water return circuit I might suggest make certain you've got good sacrificial anodes in your system and also perhaps if possible put those pumps on a timer so they're not running 24/7 I've read where casinos in Las Vegas sometimes have to change their plumbing fixtures perhaps every five years simply because of corrosion in the systems and that a lot of the piping out there has had people to see PVC to try and every problem because of their software situations Jeff you mentioned the situation was with aggressively soft water what would you consider to be defining soft water is it in grains a hardness is there measurement there that you would say would be too soft if that's that's a loaded question there's a very complex formula it's called Langley er index and at this time that's something you'd have to look up online and look up Langley or index because you're looking at pH you're looking at the minerals in the water you're looking at chlorides and the waterfall sakes there's many different factors in there that are going to say whether the water is going to be aggressively corrosive or a scale former or neutral based on the temperature that you're working with and so I could say yes low grains of hardness means that soft modern could be problems but not necessarily there's other factors involved also I remember - Jeff is uh when we first went in direction I became popular in the market and people said well yeah you can put a much smaller indirect and you would have with a gas-fired water here because you've got the horsepower your boiler and they recover quick and you're going to have all this hot water never run out well that wasn't necessarily the case with you know homes with big dump loads and stuff so what did they start doing they started cranking them up and suddenly crank those indirect water heaters up to 140 maybe 160 degrees or even hotter and put up the mistake computing mixing valve on them well not that that multiply that you talked about a second ago really dries up when you start taking their tanks up to 140 160 and you've got really aggressive water now so you know we top failures the stainless steel tags we've blamed it on the welding we blamed it on that great a stainless and in fact was those elevated temperatures were just really making that water that much more aggressive to the to the tank that's that's true and you there could be in an instance here where chlorides if there's some salt to that water and you know that when you soften water you're adding chlorides to the water yeah as a means of removing the minerals those folks who are doing saltwater swimming proof we have to be cautious as to what type of heat exchanger you might interface with the saltwater pool if you're so if you're getting that from solar or geothermal or with a boiler or such the glides and the saltwater pools will will cause stress corrosion stress crack corrosion on stainless and we have to be careful about what's used what greatest famous or if we go to a marine type grass cupro-nickel or such heat exchanger to handle those situations so like I say it's a complex problem and a complex answer sometimes I wish it was disease you're saying yes or no but there's no straightness or not to so it's something we should bring in a water expert if you have ongoing problems that you can't seem to get a hand on with pinholes and cob or you know bronze pumps started leaking stuff like that I mean you really need to get somebody that knows how to analyze all those different things and it's not just going to be a little like I have in my truck of softness test kit where you can just drops and count how many grains like I say you got another pH at TDS it's not something that the average plumber is going to probably have the ability to test that on the job site or even the knowledge to know what needs to be adjusted or changed to make it a viable fluid for the system that's that's very true and for those out there with some well water situations most well water is going to have dissolved carbon dioxide in it we don't think of our well waters as being say effervescence or carbonated but there is natural carbonation in those lowers and as you eat them you drive out the carbon dioxide and that upsets the chemical balance and then things become scale forming but carbon dioxide by yourself is carbonic acid so you can have a cold water supply with lots of carbon dioxide in it and it's very aggressive so that's that's where a specific groundwater side comes in to things so let's move on here here's a commercial geothermal which runs at say temperatures between 40 degrees Fahrenheit and 70 degrees Fahrenheit this building was fight all in black iron pipe it circulates around 222 horizontal geothermal machines above the ceiling and within about five years of its construction it began to experience leaks that graph two threaded black iron connections and it was all attributed to combination of galvanic corrosion and methanol in the system and we abated that using the sacrificial anode rods in a canister and a simple bypass here at one of them one of two primary pumps for the system it worked quite nicely here's an issue that you'll find it occurs frequently with soft water and it's these Inka fication you might remember from the galvanic series that zinc is very low on the galvanic series and our brass contains at a copper and zinc the water can aggressively go after that zinc dissolve it from the brass making the brass porous and you start to find this light cleft from the minerals in salt water coming up through the grass valve that's fine background way so quiet self-doubt in the moment we have situations where a lot of our brass valves and materials are now coming from overseas horses and I might say perhaps they're recycled and they may have a higher zinc content then what pure copper may have had from years ago and it's something we want to watch out for i I watch refrigerant coils and I question why we see so many leaks and refrigerant coils of recent and I have to question if it might be within the chemical makeup of that coppers there might be some residual think there those those are yet to be answered who put it that way but this is what happens in a water system and if you notice structure where you see the white crust building up around brass valves you know that it's become course you notice become weak and if I ever find a gate valve that shows evidence of this on it I'm very cautious about how much tension or pressure you put on those gate valves because the threaded mechanism that raises and those the gates may just give away if you're trying to tighten the valve closed or trying to open it from a closed position I've said I've had to replace many with ball valves because the gates remain stuck in position and it's because this these Inka fication type reaction that occurs in raw water supplies that's a good tip I you know I've seen that on valves and you're right you grab a handful that knobby to turn on you might just have it come off in your hand and have a potential leak in your gear or suddenly it spins and you can't figure out why there's no circulation in the circuit oh oh no that valve is 50 years old no this this is a great slide it came to me through through one of our commercial suppliers and I was I was just totally knocked off my feet when I thought this bronze our grasp pump impeller is one year old and it was on a variable frequency drive motor that had experienced a high voltage surge they ended up replacing the drive unit on the motor but did not replace the motor and my suspicion is that there's been some whining damage in that motor that's causing stray currents to pass through the shaft and dissipate into the fluid that they circulate because the the plumbing system is copper is connected to and it shows almost complete I want to say electrolysis depletion on the impeller of this pump it would be something to watch out for and make certain that there's good grounding for things and if you do experience problems with motors and drives that you're watching for say electrical crime and when we talk about open systems that are working with rail water this is a simple galvanized tee with a brass nipple inserted to it so you've got a combination of galvanic corrosion going on there and you've got the action of a raw well water which literally queue to hole through it and create quite quite a bit of water damage in the area where this was located so you never want to use ferrous metals with raw water supplies you always want to work with brass stainless PVC CBBC on essentially non corrosive metals when you're working with raw water so the galvanized went to the browsers or vice versa and that caused it to be then just a black steel fitting inside once again ice coating one away that's right it was just turned to black steel the battery cell was there between the black steel and and the brass and it goes right through it's a little bit it will right here here for the plumber in all of this the dielectric unions that are used at the top of hot water tanks are primarily feel connected to copper piping and they become a bit of a sacrificial anode in the system once the anode rod and Sanctus years usually there's galvanic are those dielectric coupling stuff become pretty well plugged up some corrosion or eventually perforate one the same thing there I would say Jeff is you know depending on where they were manufactured the quality of the thing coating that's put on there once that goes away I mean if they're not plated well if and I played with the good quality then you're right you just have a steel finish yeah once it goes it's gone right and it's it's a rapid process it doesn't take too long I'd say within about 18 months of the depletion of an anode rod and a hot water tank if you have an aggressive soft water is about the time you see that tank perforated some place where the the water can get through to a law steel area where a threaded coupling comes into the tank over there might be an imperfection in the glass lining on the tank well now on this one here the water - had something to do with it because that's the electrolyte I guess in it so depend on what the quality of the condition of the water can make that speed up or slow down like I said oh yeah father in the hot water - would it would make up you know happened quicker yes yes that that that was the water because it's raw water it's well water it's mineralized water and mineralized water carries an electric current the ionized water has no minerals to it same with distilled water and will not carry an electric current so I could essentially stand in a bucket of deionized water and touch a live electric line and not electrocute myself because the water does not conduct the electricity but don't try this at home don't try it especially if you're out in the desert Southwest insulators on high tension lines accumulate dust and if there would ever be a sea fog situation come in off the coast or some moisture that dust becomes electrically conductive and those high tension lines can short the graph so utility companies will come around with a water cannon truck and deionized water and spray off the insulators and its face to do that from the ground because the deionized water will not carry that 14,000 to 48,000 volt charge from those high tension lines to the ground it will not conduct the electricity so if they've to clean them off oh this slide is up right now shows a pile of brown debris and this is actually redeposited ferrous material from a ferrous piping fan from the black iron piping system this was really positive inside the rubber flexible hoses that are used to connect between the geothermal jeans and the piping in the building and yeah at the time I was replacing machine I thought that these hoses were fatigued with age and I said you know we're going to cut these hoses out and replace them because they feel hard and crunchy low and behold the hard and crunchy inside the hose with redeposited ferrous metals from in the system and not a fatigue in the hose itself the hose was perfect after it was cleaned out but just squeezing reflecting the hose gave you this crunchy feeling and this is the material that was coming out of the hose the grid behind this is a quarter inch scale grid so some of these flakes are well over a half inch across the system this came out of I had a 30 gallon trash can pump strainers kept plugging up and we ended up taking them apart in Flushing from the system they're using hammer drills on the sides of lines low places and the lines try and agitate stuff like this to get to liquefy and flow along the system to get cleaned out and we eventually got the whole system cleaned out but it was it was quite the process trying to collect this material at the pump room and get it flushed around the system and separated so later on in the program I think Bob's got some great illustrations of equipment that's really intended for separating things like this out of the system and what was causing if I I should watch on this one job where was the what was the catalyst for this catalyst was our lost city water mixed with methanol and as an antifreeze in the system so you had corrosion in the metal ferrous piping of the system we can only surmise that there's something with the molecular makeup of the rubber fluxes or perhaps there's some oxygen permeability of those rubber flecks OSes but there's a mechanism there that had this material depositing inside the hoses huh sounds like some of the old radiant hose that we had out there that would sludge up from some of the early two that didn't have oxygen barriers on we ran them in high temperatures and this is what we saw come on the system if you if you found hard a hard crust here I would almost bet that these hoses which are essentially like automotive radiator hose or something but they're rated for about a hundred hard psi or better maybe contributing to that and it might be an oxygen barrier issue you know so more room for research hope we got some ASHRAE members out there here's one that Bob can talk about is I think you probably had some direct experience with this one breath yeah and just recently about oh about a month ago now and so the system I actually worked on 12 years ago I hope to boil it up to the system there was a system that the homeowner had installed here in Missouri I won't say the brand the tubing that he used it was a on tube idiot put himself and he asked me to connect it and so I put this system together and then he called me here about a month ago so gosh I got water seeping out in the basement around where the where the heater is for this system he said can come over take a look at it this is what I found and this was again filled with just city water and you can see that it's actually completely corroded the the media from the air purge in there and also pin hold the expansion tank as well as a copper pipe anywhere there was copper pipe that was in the system was turned to have these green marks on and camped you in the picture but this actually pin holds were those green spots are so again I have to say that with an oxygen permeation issuing the pipe tubing that was used in the system running at the elevated temperatures it was a staple job so it was run pretty warm temperatures but I mean that's what had happened is it it just they didn't attack not only the least noble but even the could metals in there the the copper pipe the the steel expansion tank as well as the the media I believe that's a brass media that's coated or plated or something I'm not sure exactly what that's made of it but I mean that's not something you want washing through your tubing in your system because that's going to do exactly what the picture before it showed with the with the ferrous components going to start plugging up your your tubing in your your zone boughs and different components in the system so yeah I mean it just keeps happening it's it's something that you're going to need to pay attention to and check the system to make sure that they're commissioned right in the first place but even all those steps if you've got a product in there that's causing and oxygen to get into the system this is going to be an ongoing problem yeah and and I say you know as I look at that I think oh gee I wonder if maybe this was softened water that went into that do you do you have a recollection where this was on city water or world water it's on city water it's in the city of springfield here in missouri so I got on city water and it there is no softener in the house so I know I have soft water it's just filled right from with the cold water you know cap coming into the into the house so yeah it looks what looks like a reasonable mechanism from my experience there yeah I'm talking this one up to the non barrier tubing that was used in it but you're right unless you could tell me to analyze every one of these jobs which can get too expensive and time-consuming you really don't know you just make some assumptions based on your like you thirty years of doing this insane seeing the same thing over and over again at some point you you know you realize what the common denominators are there and there's it can deny that yeah right yes well this next slide appeared in the January issue of the ASHRAE jump and it can be referenced back to Electric Power Research Institute study but it shows someone with some of this reddish brown grit which is actually ferrous pipe scale or deposited ferrous material from corrosion and metal piping very similar same material as we had on the graph paper previously just in a much smaller finer grit and then we also see some greenish pipe scale obviously from copper type tubing and replicated redefinition and such inside this grass strainer fixture probably going into life strainer assembly from a similar situation again these are the results of pore fluid quality in hydraulic systems and causing repeat maintenance and problems with the equipment plugging up strainers filters and and so forth at equipment and creating a lot of downtime in their repair so some questions up Bob I don't know if this slide came by way is if you like this slide in or if John sent this one yeah I brought I brought the slide in because John no seconds are asked the question he said well what about the tubing that we're using in geo systems it's not a barrier tube it's just a regular PE tubing is that a concern so I just put a picture of this is actually a loop that you can tell there's a pond in the background I put this in a palm loop here at my house last summer just replaced an older system and updated it but that was the question and that's I put this in the trigger the question that we asked you is it a concern in the geo systems that we're not using barrier tubing or is it the temperature that they run it it's not so much of an issue that is the higher temperature system this this could be a matter of academic question from my personal experience I feel the corrosion by o2 permeability is more an issue at higher temperatures and it isn't low tempest because as I said the solubility of a metal doubles with every 10 degrees in temperature rise yep but and so because most all of our our geothermal installations are going to operate between temperatures in the mid 20s to is highest perhaps 100 degrees we're less likely to see those issues but with the geothermal I really feel that the original quality of the makeup water is the determining factor and how that system is going to behave as well as the other fluid if it's an anti-freeze floor being a good quality inhibitors in it that's correct but the water not just the pond water with some HEPA moments you show the first fluid or the presence of inhibitors in the makeup fluid that are going to be the big determining factors there I've seen lots of systems made up with both so cleaning and ethylene glycol not that we we sanction the use of ethylene glycol but I think it used in regular tap water or city water and those inhibitors were early depleted and any expansion tank used on those systems typically perforated within five years time and end up being replaced pump bodies rusted on the interior oftentimes to the point where their suction intake rings became loose and started clattering around and you realize there was a problem inside that pump so that's why I relate back to water quality and the chemistry of that original make up water and the presence of inhibitors and and how they behave it's interesting to open one of those old systems and start filtering it to a bag filter and find all the Oh shall I say milky sediment its captured in a bag filter just because if they were inhibitors that came out of solution and notice that the antifreeze has more of the odor of the rancid pickle juice or silage and you know that bad things have been happening inside those systems system quality oftentimes with the antifreeze suppliers they will premix and bring it to the site in trucks for commercial projects we typically do is we keep a CI column at our offices and a service comes around and they'll replace that every month they will exchange it for a new new media bed that will run chlorinated city water through the DI column the water coming out of the column is the same quality as you would have with a distilled water and a neon lamp on that column tells you whether your discharge water is a good quality or if it's containing minerals and the column is being depleted it's time to get an exchange it makes it very easy because we can fill a 500 gallon tank in one of our trucks and cart debt to a job site and then pump that down into the system to fill up on commercial jobs where you may have as many as four of these columns all ganged up and run together and then feed them from city water to flush a commercial system but the expense of doing this is far less in the expense of trying to maintain a system is having problems with scale and corrosion because you didn't take the necessary precautions yeah so you just get a chemical regiment that's trying to to correct the problem with a bad water that's in there so you're just adding every couple months of inhibitor chemical and in fact you should just be changing the water on but in better quality water I know a contractor in the in Utah that did a lot of snowmelt systems in which were you know high capacity fluid system so he kept one of these um I think you can get in from culligan you can rent them these some di machines and you would just take that right to the job with them and just buy you know hundred percent glycol you could just mix it for the the percentage that he wanted for the job right on the job site it's just you know easier and cheaper to buy the glycol you know full-strength like that and then just blend it to whatever mix you want on the job site and you always use one of those things and I'd knock on wood I've never seen a problem and any one of his systems but there's you know plenty of glycol pinhole problems over the years very very very true it's oftentimes the most economical way to do things but when you're working with a DI column you want to use a treated chlorinated source to that I would never consider feeding someone's well water through my di column you can have background bacteria and such in well water that might populate the resin in that column and then get transferred over to future fill so you want to treat that as though it was medical equipment and make certain that it's used only with a treated shall I say municipal source water preferably a very low hardness because the columns will last much longer and the chlorinated water supply keeps you with the clean column and you're not not causing contamination to a glycol solution this might be a great time to interject that the glycol manufacturers will state rather definitively that when you start working with glycol concentrations less than 25 percent you dramatically increase the possibility of bacterial contamination so you can get slime growing and so forth in your glide calls when you're working with concentrations less than 25 we ran our tests that 20% solutions because we were mixing with clean water for the most part but if if there's any situation where a make up water might come from the city supply heaven forbid that it would but if it did come from an outside supply it's just to keep that glycol concentration at 25 percent or just a little bit higher to try and forego any possibility of a bacterial growth within that glycol solution but this is one that you brought into the program and this is probably a hot water scaling situation I would suspect yeah it was a young domestic distribution yeah it was a diminutive of the Bradford white rep had this at a seminar that recently he was doing water quality and for water heaters and tanks and vessels and stuff like that and yet this little sample that it cut away of you know they're getting reduced water flow to this apartment or whatever this hotel building was that's a forage compromise I believe a two inch branch on the side and that's what the hot water again hot water is making that precipitated out I believe Jeff is that's the case absolutely and then yeah just trying to cut that out of the system as you can imagine like cutting through rocks with the sawzall boy it's to get it on there that's when they knew just wrap it on with your knuckles and trying to cut it out realize that that's what was happening is the hard water was just um precipitating out in the hot water mains and coating inside of it those are just amazing to be able to show those and did the Bradford Light fellow have a solution for this problem well I'm assuming it was going to be some type of softening equipment in there because um you know the water supply is what the water supply is so you got to either you treat it or you deal with problems like this but um I think the other thing that that he had indicated was running at a pretty high temperature you know in the system from I understand the hotter you run the water the more minerals precipitate of its up the tanks are under that now heard 40 hundred fifty degrees you're gonna get more than this precipitate now but I never did hear what the what the final fix was but I should the whole building look like that was probably repipe to begin recommend correct in the water issues before you build this up again well I suspect that this is a water supply that had a perhaps a well as its source and had relatively high carbon dioxide content to it before it got to the water heater and the carbon dioxide keeps the calcium and solution Nelson magnesium and after that carbon dioxide was released by heating it the only option available there was for that that calcium magnesium to start crystallizing out in it this is what we get tree rings inside our box yeah that was incredible maker as you can imagine it weighed like 1500 yes yes I like the coffee pot it never gets colder - yeah so actually I think from here on out it's probably what I've got going and we're get about 10 or 15 minutes here but um now what I will say is I want to show you some of the coffee product that we have that can address some of these conditions now we can't with a brass device or composite device we can't fix bad water quality I'm not going to and I think you realize that that's not the intent of the products that we're going to show you here but I mean it happens on non projects with domestic water here's one more quick setter that was used on a domestic water system and it and the same thing it started plugging up you know the clothes repeating reduce going through it and we got it back to the factory look through it you could barely see through the end of that because it has closed up with the UH with the hard water deposits on that domestic hot water line that was being used on now you know again a strainer isn't going to fix that a separator isn't going to fix that you really have to address you know the fluid that's going through that device but hey Bob the question came in and this slides probably good to address it this is Mark as a Jeff you mentioned that water will basically members will precipitate out as a function of temperature so the higher the temperature the more problems you have with hard water is there any function as it relates to calcification of pipes regarding the velocity of the fluid traveling through it I mean this fast you wood is more forgiving yes yeah faster faster more forgiving because a higher velocity in the pipes helps - shall we say erode or a braid or keep that scale from forming so speed speed helps reduce reduce the amount of scale formation inside the lines and so as an engine Congress if an engineer was simply on a hot water research just trying to overcome the temperature loss in the pipes going up to the fixtures alone that calculation might result in a fluid velocity a little bit less than Apple as it relates to scaling well let me think here for a second you higher fluid velocity is going to where the pipe away faster you'll have more pipe corrosion if it's an aggressive water but you'll help limit the scaling if it's a scale forming law yeah that's that's like a catch-22 question like I say I think they don't think yeah the second velocity you might keep your pipe scoured but then you could you know pinhole from corrosion erosion from the pool going around elbows and stuff to fail yes you'd find those turbulence places and erosion right yeah so you're trading off one problem for another okay I was a good spot for that question yeah all right that's another one here's yeah and this is again sent to us it's a one of the small diameter tube mod comm boilers nope you can see the picture but that's actually water spraying up through a pinhole in there now this is I believe and I don't have the complete story on this you know kept taking on makeup water so as you can see the little cutaway of the of the tube there it was getting too pounced on the inside of it until now when the flame came on inside this heat exchanger it wasn't getting the heat to the water it was actually becoming an insulator on that tube and then it you can see by the color the tubes there where the burning was going in that it was overheated and finally fatigued the medal to the point where it developed the pinhole so two things to be said on this obviously this was a closed loop hydraulic system though we're not looking at a potable water system and it was a case of you know taking on water constantly had leak in the system somewhere as I recall and it was taking our water i plugging up the heat exchanger or at least coating the heat exchanger so that you didn't eat transfer to the water and then stress on the metal so number one check make sure you don't have leaks in the system you know put a gauge on it monitored for a while but yeah you can't keep putting fresh water or closed loop system especially water that has you know hard mineral deposits in it or this is um this is it it's a problem yeah you don't get your heat transfer and things get too hot yeah just don't assume because it's a closed-loop system and you filled it up on the first day that that's good and there forever and I think this is one I use on Jeff with that summer type of boiler yes this is a situation where the boiler the the body was not level within the frame and it was causing condensate to pool towards the front side of the boiler that condensate becomes very acidic and not flushing itself completely through the condensate drain at the back of the boiler was likely the explanation for perforations at the weld scene around the front side of the boiler it's even eating away the concrete block below it there yeah it's the way the concrete block underneath that's right there's about a 1/4 inch divot in that concrete block where the where the condensate was dripping out onto the block a real low pH in that condensate water oh yeah yeah and here's here's one that you provided yeah and I mean one of the spelling features of this type of water was it head of self-cleaning heat exchanger that it was a two type of boiler instead of that little serpentine coil they sell you either self clean they won't plug up but again you know garbage in garbage out it's like the early days of computers whatever you put into them is what they spit back out if you put bad water quality you keep adding fresh water hard water rusty water something like that into a heat exchanger it doesn't matter that it's a self-cleaning design it still has a potential to plug up and of course this is going to overheat and fatigue the metal just like the the other type of heat exchanger on the different style board yeah I looked at this one I said my goodness whatever they were circulating in this in this radiation system must have been nasty nasty dirty water it or it had a leak somewhere in the system and it was being made up yeah my water on a continuous basis because exactly this time accumulated rusty mineral scale telling me there's other ferrous metals in the system that are going bad along with hard water that that it's not getting flushed out and clean yeah now that is something that you know we have some prior some coffees that can certainly minimize this but I mean if you got to find the cause of the problem I mean you can't just put a bandaid on if this is going to keep going on we have separators that can deal with that as long as that can get plus through the piping if the pump can move that through the system you know the various separators we have well remove that type of particle as well as that magnetic stuff that we showed you earlier and we'll show a couple of products but again we don't want to tell your product to you know to treat a symptom you got to find the cause of it and keep the stuff out but we certainly have products that are designed to handle this type of residue all right but that's this is a low velocity very low pressure drop on the water side up here so there really isn't a lot of force to try to flush this stuff through this this type of a boiler it's nice because you can do total circulation systems but it means having a claim to do that yeah and that's the trade off I mean we don't have a velocity that we did in that serpentine coil before it but this is the other side you won't you know like if they scour these tubes because of the low-pressure zone type of grass right right yeah we're going to oh you can talk on this one I'm excited about these yeah this this is going to handle a lot of problems this is a product that we've introduced and a couple things that's unique about this it's a composite body so we're not going to have any issues with these implication if the water becomes aggressive but what this device does it's a separator a dirt separator but it's also got a magnetic band so some of those slides that Jeff showed a little bit earlier we had those Pharaohs particles that had just kind of in tiered together in you know stuck to the inside of that row we're homes on those geo systems as long as that is moving around through the system we can catch it with this type of device because in addition to having a median here that's going to catch the big particles and scrub the amount and cause them to fall to the bottom of the cup here where that valve can flush them out it's got a magnetic band that's going to get those tiny little almost like shape and let off your pencil with your pocketknife that type of debris that over years is going to build up and finally it can plug up the tube to the pumps or the zone valve this device here is going to get that now obviously you're going to have to do this is one actually on my shop I've got it on a big solar steel tank that I have was an old LP tank that I turned into a solar storage tank and every couple months I go out there and put a cup and I'm not adding any new water to it it's just debris that was in that tank when I converted to use but I put that clear plastic cup under it and you can see with the little pocket magnet there on the left hand picture that that is ferrous components that's washing on the attack and that magnetic band on the bomb of that captures that I take the band off open the valve on the bottom put a cup under I can flush it out and see what comes out of it so I think it's going to be really popular component for us can be you can you can see the brass ring you can turn it horizontally or vertically applications for that so that's what we call it dirt bags with those dirt and magnetic particle removal and I'd say as as we start to work with variable speed circulating pumps that have permanent magnets in them devices like this are going to become more essential yeah yeah I think it should be this is not something we went floating around with the wet rotor pump no we don't want it in the magnet right exactly an ECM pump it as a strong permanent magnet type of motor you can see this is just a powder if you were to pour that out it almost looks like I say you took your pocket knife you're led on your pencil and shades that it's a really fine powder and it's going to go and it's going to get into those into those pumps so you can see what the magnet that comes off of our dirt kale they're stuck to the outside of a clear plastic cup here and it's you can see how it attracts those it's particles so yeah this is going to be a key component with the new types of pumps on the market and then of course we've got some bigger products that are available these are dirt separators you can see on the right there on some of our breath on different versions of our dirt Cal's we can add we are adding the magnetic bands to those also so if you need larger sizes that magnetic band is available for those you can see we've got from verticals there as well as some horizontal dirt mags that'll will get the big part in the course of the larger flange steel versions are on the left no so we have a new product that we're going to introduce that we did introduce I should say this is a four in one product that we're excited about and this is going to do hydraulic separation as well as good dürdane air removal because we put a full-length media in there from the top to the bottom so it's a it's a true three-in-one device that we can do hydraulic separation good air removal with a high-capacity air vent on the top and then again real good dirt removal with the full length media and those did we have on our this one probably rotating was if you click it again this is a new product except for and this is a true foreign one device now look what we did here is we put the top of our regular on error separators on that so that's a serviceable top on though you can get to the flow to get to the stem on the top of that and we put the magnetic band on the bottom of it so now you've got hydraulic separations as you can see it's a four port hydroseparator we've got the full length median there to do a good job of air removal at the top to remove at the bottom we've got a convenience port for a sensor well or a temperature gauge up to the top and then we've added the magnetic band to the bottom of it so this is probably going to be a great application for just about any job whether it's a new installation or retrofit on one of those systems that just showed wood they've had some problems with with corrosion in there this would be a device that can grab any of those again it was like a universal Universal for a lot of things yeah and I like the insulation jacket that yeah it goes around behind things so that you know you can serve in NGO family could serve in solar it could serve in the chilled water yeah for notice and that does come with a three-piece are actually a four-piece you know the two front hat and back has on the top and bottom so that if it is used in a chilled water application which it certainly should or could be it'll keep that from sweating and dripping and looks nice too yeah there's a little better picture what just goes on inside of it man insulation detail in there with the media top and bomb and the good air bed on the top oh there you go almost done yeah we got a couple more sighs thanks for hanging in everybody I can see people are sticking on there this is a tell us about it this is your book just out or one again yeah this this is just out this we worked on this for two years I spent this past year circling through committees with refrigeration service engineers to get the comments of various committee meet people and just here before year in 2012 why it went to print and it's now available in the RACs bookstore if a 200 plus page manual written as a primer for geothermal systems for those those people who are involved with specifying for installing sales of geothermal we talk about all just a multitude of installation situations and how to overcome problems examples in Corrections so that's why I say it it's one of those texts to help supplement people with that expert raining to design ground loops and so forth and it takes us another quantum leap beyond just training to do the in the ground part of geothermal but looking more at the equipment installation water quality issues when you're working with open loop systems as well water so forth as well as our closed-loop systems and solution water quality antifreeze quality so forth in a lot of the shall we say I don't want to step on too many toes but installers sometimes have a few X chromosomes and don't read the manuals or go through the books and so it's about reading the fine print on the electrical diagrams and how to set up the control boards and such and make sure these machines are going to operate the way they're intended to operate well good for you and I hope that you sell a million of them that's what I think it's a first to have it if people want to father's will make these slides available you can do a screen grab right now you can capture that you know address if you want but so it's it's a good read and has lots of real life stories in there and experiences and we cover the three major manufacturers on equipment and just a multitude of equipment varieties methods of installation and so forth right I'm going to get a copy okay on the next slide yeah I think we're about to that just some housekeeping details here at there note that's our hydraulics layout with the number 12 just came out here this January at the ash ratio we kind unveiled that that's on hydronic fundamentals again it just kind of takes you through the basic steps of design the system the references some of the other ones so we didn't get too thick on that so if you're not on our list make sure you go to the website copy us and sign up and we'll get you on the mailing list and mail those out so that's that next speed I might add that that hydronic fundamentals should be in everybody's book shop I think that's going to be our I think that's gonna be a crowd-pleaser best sellers our geo and our solar ones have been our biggest um you know most popular but I think that one's going to overtake them all because it is so well written and it just really remind you of all the basic things that sometimes you just need to read that again and remember that and it's of course updated for the modern day components and stuff too so all of these manuals are extremely well Illustrated and it is not just an illustration but it's an illustration with descriptions of what's there and what they do and what their purpose is and so forth yeah it's I've been collecting these for a long long time well thanks for that log yeah that's why I was so excited when you offered the opportunity to participate in the webinar well thank you for your years of experience I know it's hard to jam all that into an hour's work time and I know we're running over here a little bit but if you get to see Jeff at some of the different you know associations and stuff that were there meeting to get together definitely sit in on the seminars because you'll learn a lifetime's worth of information there um when we got left I think that's about it a couple things just that upcoming stuff the next couple hydraulics coming out and we'll do one on cooling systems that will be nice rating different hydraulic cooling systems will be out sometime in July and then next year we want to get in that more on wiring schematics and stuff that's one of the questions we always get so that that'll be an excellent one on how to wire different hydraulic ins and probably some solar controls in there what else diplomas on the next slide I think if anybody wants one of these for any other continue ed Kretz or something there be available to people on Mariel Sunday's out so it takes a couple days to week before you'll see but we'll email them directly to you so you have a record that you attended today and what else coming up on the next slide that's what we've got coming up for the next couple months so a thermal on the next one from engineering innovation and then cooling down John Seigenthaler is going to sit on this one he's going to do some hydraulic cooling a session for us that should be really good and Markham