Get the Iron Out Boiler Room Upgrades

the broadcast is now starting all attendees are in listen-only mode LD clappy fans and welcome to copy for clapping June and years have gone by how fast it goes hey I'm thanks everybody for tuning in today we'd love to see all these names and some new people on the list today as well as some old-timers so thanks everybody for taking the time to join us today and we're delighted to have jodi i'm bored today jodi pound-for-pound is probably the one of the best the hydronic gurus and the industry's got a deep knowledge of specifically in the boiler industry so we got the right guy in the right place and you're here at the right time so dirty also i think you have hydronic in your own house so he talked to talk and walks the walk so hydronics so up to issue number 18 number 19 will be out here with the next couple months these are probably one of the best training resources in the industry we're very proud of this and this is a free for you so just let us know if you're not getting these go to our website and sign up and these will be mailed right to your doorstep and jodi i showed you the issues that kind of relate to the topic today here the next slide but make sure you have these if you need some back issues or something let us know so I'm in fact I'm going to turn it over to Jodi he's he's the guy tell us what you got here now I've been a boiler guy for a while and I work for you know on the residential side particularly we set a look at the condensing boilers coming into the market I'd have to say I go back about 10 or 11 years and one of the questions the pill comes up sometimes from homeowners sometimes from contractors is all about upgrading an existing system we call it the ire knows if it's about iron boilers cast iron tube of copper fin boil is about feel boilers can I take my existing heating system it just swap the boiler out and see good comfortable performance en equally as important can I save money in the process so that's always the two sides of the coin that everybody's looking for comfort and savings now with somebody poses me this question I am very re evasive in my answers for somebody usually the conversation finally turns to how much am I going to say how much money can I save on the compass commemoration my first answer is a very definite it depends it depends a lot on a number of factors am i doing a commercial building am i doing the residential building tell me all about the building itself now if somebody's pressing me hard for a number mitek an answer and this is particularly under residential side commercials a little bit more complicated but my answer in that considers is a fairly comfortable answer is if it's done right I should save you at least twenty-five percent on your fuel bills and to me that's a good number to run with could it be more absolutely now first thing that comes out is well how do i get twenty-five or greater when I did when I had a boiler conversion done in my house and my wife pressed me for the number i told her 35 we're going to talk a little bit about how that number haunted me after the first year of heating but somebody says how do i get to that number I mean we're putting in the boiler that has an A fue is ninety percent like her employer is eighty percent efficient where's the 25 coming from that 50 first we were realizing we start is it's based on the face line a hundred percent is at the baseline the baseline is the equipment that's sitting inside the building so if it's eighty percent efficient it's about how much more efficient 95 becomes so it's not about a baseline of 15 or I'm starting with 15 i'm really starting at all round up or call in nineteen percent so if i go from major professor 95% that should be about a nineteen percent savings then the question becomes well where's the rest of the seasons coming from and you these words come out many if I and during the course of this do your homework when I look at doing a conversion from a non-technical condensing boiler it's not as simple as walking to the mechanical room look at the boiler spend five minutes walk out and write up a quote this home work that has to happen ok what's your baseline of the boiler what do I have in the mechanical room what's surrounding it let's do our homework am i comparing the boiler to a lab test an A fue a thermal efficiency I'm a comparing it to a combustion test error by comparing it to a field combustion analysis typically particularly on the commercial side and particularly on the oil side my my number of condition comparing two usually noted last number if Sonia it went into the mechanical room they took a combustion analyzer and they ran of combustion tests on the boil here's a great example of one this happens to be for an atmospheric boiler and among the information is the efficiency and losses so this boiler according to this combustion test is seventy nine point five percent efficient so all of a sudden I'm looking at the competition and that's where it starts now many will say numbers never lie that number doesn't lie when you're looking at the combines the efficiency of the gases passing through the boilers but there's a lot of backstory here that we need to take a look at I'm going to jump up to this number up here this tea room the combustion analyzers measure a lot of things and one of the things is the room temperature this room temperature is 90 degrees Fahrenheit could it be done because the tests have been undone on a July day absolutely but like those of us that have spit kind in boiler rooms particularly in the middle of the heating season this vacation isn't that we walk into the boiler room and we leave our jacket off if dictation is I walked into that boiler room it's easy it's 85 maybe 90 degrees where does that heat come from well you look around that boiler room there's probably not a heater in the room and if it is is probably turned off all of that piece coming off of the boiler okay now if that boy is putting us out and that's enough heat to bring that room that 80 85 90 degrees that's losses that this combustion analysis doesn't easy consider let's look at another thing on here it's called the lambda they're going to say what's the Flex ananza somebody probably will say you know what I saw revenge of the nerds I know it is a Greek letter okay that's a lot of things and from our aspect land is an identification of excess air so i expect the one point something number if I had a 1.0 I wouldn't have any excess air the numbers after the decimal point represent your excess air the 1.88 indicates that I am passing eighty percent more air through the system than I need for combustion okay where's that air coming from well if this is a atmosphere boiler my expectation is it draws the air out of the boiler room as they make up air comes in this replace that air that's being dragged up so I've got eighty eight percent excess air my boiler is is giving off enough heat the main team 90 degrees fahrenheit in the boiler room then the question becomes how much losses does this represent now people will I you about a lot of different numbers I am looking at that that's probably at least four maybe five percent of the energy that that boiler is generating is never making it out of the boiler room but it's not reflected anywhere so I start to look at where the savings are it's based on the rating of the boiler it's based on combustion but there's a lot of other things that happen that I can pick up along the way this happens to be one of them now let's take a pro look at this number here okay now never lie but they reflect the conditions under which they're generated I do an AF ueèß I do a thermal efficiency test it's under lab conditions everything is delineated on how that order is going to be tested I go into a mechanical room and I do a combustion test it up to me when do I start it when do I finish it my first question when somebody shows me a combustion test I first question this how much the water what's your water temperature if the water temperature in the boiler is a hundred eighty twenty degrees I get much standard heat transfer than the water temperature being 180 degrees so what will happen is if they do well this temperature system could come up the temperature they get an artificially high combustion efficiency Flynn Monday at work was in the past a gentleman named JT rivet called him up great boiler guy and I trying to nail him down on how much of a change that is after a longer conversation I'm kind of go with the lower edge number and the lower remember that we've pretty much agreed on is if I test the boiler at 120 degrees the efficiency actually will drop by 3% possibly more when it gets up to 100 needed so listen I'm using this number as the yardstick but it's artificially high because of the conditions the boilers tested under now the other one that comes into place really is heading into the oil industry yeah I go into a residential or commercial application I expect to walk in there and find us a stack of a heavy paper almost like a cardboard card while you're tied to a pipe with this display this printout staple to it sometimes you see 20 years were showing how that oil perform now that typically is done after the boiler is clean you know my question always becomes well what would this before you know nobody does this before there's nobody wants to clean up oily so when I look at that the suit fills up so it is a great insulator and it can have a big effect on that the heat transfer this was a great chart out there it looked at the effects of certain scale on heat transfer I'm going to go with a thin layer 160 of an inch if I have a 16th of an inch of foot my luck that boiler efficiency is off by 27.9 it's that heavy of an insulator on the inside so that boiler that maybe eighty percent after its clean before it's cleaned its efficiency was almost thirty percent less so when you look at the annual performance of that boiler it's not as a high end it's not as a low ended somewhere in the middle but the combustion analyzer really doesn't give you a good picture of what we're up against when we're trying to figure out the saving that's going to occur now residential II if um if somebody has an atmospheric gas boiler a calf and residential boiler or fired the natural gas atmospheric a lot of times they may not take a combustion analyzer and check the combustion when they look at replacing it they'll go to the knee plate as a dad off and use that as a piece lot if that's where has been in there for 20 years there's no idea how much sup maybe on the inside of it you know there's good possibilities with acid it hasn't been cleaned and a long while if ever and on the water side there's a good chance that there's a scale built up on the inside as well you know I couple these together and sometimes these boilers are running 15 20 25 possibly more percent under the advertised performance it's an opportunity for savings for a lot of times it's a hidden opportunity the one thing with you know talking about savings with potential customers I always would rather be conservative under-promise and over-deliver rather than the office now later on we're going to talk to me about the ivr numbers when it comes to select the boiler you know each spoiler will come with a series of ratings on it some of the ratings are here as an example you know I pulled this out of walk involvement of Lochinvar manuals I like the manuals I'd love always have good pictures a lot of information but he spoiler comes with a number of ratings the 1 i'm interested in the pita mana i'm interested in that that pieces off of the bottom the boiler has a net ID i read i think nowadays i call as an S a HR I you know I happen to be old school I still believe in the ivr but this ibi rating is the output of the boiler d rated for fifteen percent and part of that fifty percent is an eight percent D race for distribution losses but the expectations is the water leads the boiler and between the boiler in the heat emitter this gonna be loth is going to be a loss we sign based on about eight percent loss along the way when I go in I start to retrofit one of the things i have is sitters i can i can start to get rid of some of this loss it's about pipes loss it happen to be out of one of my I chronixx and let's look at the bitter copper tubing let me blow up that picture of the tube so the chart is based on the difference in the water temperature in the pipe versus the air temperature outside okay so if I look at that and I start to operate I can say okay my water temperature is 160 degrees the air temperature around it is a hundred degrees 360 degrees excuse me a hundred degrees delta T I can go off on to the charts of that figure of 71 a and with that information I can I will find that the pipe will lose 45 BTUs per inning your foot every hour I couple that let's say I have a hundred feet of exposed copper tubing in my system that is 100 feet of three quarters copper tubing every hours losing 4500 BTU I bring in the condensing boiler I run it off of outdoor Risa I reduce my water temperatures this going to be kind in operation where the boy was only running at a hundred degrees Fahrenheit so 100 degrees Fahrenheit minus sixty Fahrenheit is me a 40 degree Delta did with that 40 degrees out the team I 45 be huge for linear foot drops down to 80 I've reduced the heat the distribution losses by more than half so when I start to look at saving energy it's not just about what's happening in the boiler to look happening in the entire system I'm in there working on the boiler let's consider insulating standard half inch rubber insulation okay let's say I'm still looking at 100 degree difference where I'm looking at atb to use for foot I take that same pipe that same water conditions I insulate it I'm now the six beats used for foot I significantly reduce my losses from the piping and that is shown as increasing the efficiency on not just the system questions will mark any any up to any questions at this point no Jody we're good excellent okay now now look at a project this two sides and with particular with a commercial project hopefully the two sides are talking beside the case of the project against pays for the bills once the project is implemented and they see the ongoing bills on the life cycle of the system the flip side becomes who's paying for the project up front the upfront costs you can make a very good case for the the back end of it but when it really comes down to somebody has to write a check and usually when it comes time to write a check the question becomes why is this more is there a way to bring toss down is this a true comparison okay the first thing with high-efficiency equipment is most of the times there's ought to be some sort of incentive out there from the gas company this happens to be my local utility in Rhode Island National Grid that this is a listing of their incentive programs for high efficiency so I'm going to draw up on the bottom here condensing boilers wide variety of incentives based on efficiency and also based on the size of the sides of the boiler okay most manufacturers shoot for a 95 a fue annual fuel utilization efficiency for their boiler that's because 95 usually is the yardstick for the biggest incentive on the residential side so if I can get I can get if i put in a 95 a fue oiler I'm getting $1,500 back from my utility if the if the installation really has been presented to the building owner about going non-condensing versus condensing there's an upcharge to move to a condensing boiler residential II that fifteen hundred dollars depending on which boiler manufacturers boiler you're going with that can do a lot to take a big chunk out of that up charge to move to that condensing boiler in fact we're some manufacturers that 1500 may almost erase the F charge of going from condensing to non-condensing so there is a way to help bring that cost down now an in competitive of the condensing versus non condensing a couple other things have to come into play so I'm going in there with recommending to do a condensing boiler somebody else is going in saying you know what let's go non-conductive and basically probably tries to make a good case with the building owner and came in with us a very good quote on the job now the minute somebody says I'm trying to replace by condensing a non condensing boiler and the existing system is 20 25 30 years old my first question always is will the current venting do I am changing out like-for-like in that they're both non-condensing but the problem is as I increase the efficiency I go from 75 for 10 efficiency to eighty percent efficiency or in the case of oils and a fue it was called eighty seven and a half all the sudden the amount of energy that's in that flue gas it's still hopefully old still stays up the late he will still stay as a vapor but all of a sudden drafting and the draft of the chimney and making sure that chimney has no condensing honest all the sudden becomes an issue if you look at most boiler manufacturers amuse dish to the higher efficiency boilers most manufacturers are recommending a chimney liner in fact if you look at some of the governing documents nfpa 54 for gas nfpa 31 deals with oil fired equipment nfpa 211 deals with venting a set to look through these manuals and I look at their sides and pick tables most of this is driving towards limas chimney possibly insulating it all of a sudden when the chimney liner the cost the material the cost of installation come into play the price difference between condensing and not an inventory starts to collapse the other thing that comes into play that has to be discussed when we're looking at trying what's what's the level playing field between condensing and non condenser II it's about make up there a building goes up let's say Lee went up 20 years ago the boiler is in the basement of the building the basements 24 feet by 36 feet with 10-foot ceilings okay the boiler is drawing air are over there if i calculate the volume a calculation of volume the volume of that unfinished basement is 8640 cubic feet why is that important there's a little piece on air from combustion and ventilation I pulled that out of a manual out of a peerless boiler manual and I wanted to look at the requirements for combustion air and I wanted to jump onto the standard method the minimum required volume for indoor she'll be 50 cubic feet per thousand be teams per hour so if I 8640 cubic feet of space I can go all the way up to a hundred and seventy two thousand eight hundred BTU boiler and not have to worry about make-up air so the boiler goes in it passes final inspection everything is good now let's flash forward 20 years the basement has been finished it's been subdivided there's a laundry room there's a man cave there's a playroom there's a storage space the boiler now has been walled off so that is the five by five room with 10-foot ceilings I go through and I do my calculation the room now has 250 cubic feet I can support a 5,000 BTU boiler but let's say it has a hundred and twenty thousand BTU boiler in there it's not good for combustion and it doesn't meet coke so I go in there and I'm going to pull a permit I'm going to replace the boiler and there's going to be a final inspection the final inspections going to come around they're going to say well you did he pass you have to consider make up there and because of the limited volume particularly if the basement subdivided there's no way to make sure the air flows freely support that combustion so what happens everybody's little friends from field controls comes into play I've seen many of these are in basements around New England one of my sisters had this in the basement filled control makes it is called a fan in the camp it's a fan designed to draw combustion areas of the room I put the boiler room I type it at the outside I did have to wire it into the system I don't want this running 24 hours a day I wanted to come on with the boiler fires but not only do I want to come on when the boiler fires I want it's proving switch to make sure it's bringing an air for the boiler fires so all of a sudden more equipment more labor monk more complexity when I set to throw stuff like this into the picture I start to compare to the condensing boiler most of the condensing boilers have a sealed combustion auction I traded present as popular as this one up here in the left-hand corner to fight horizontal doing 100,000 BTU boiler I can probably do that in 2-inch the bent pipe I would probably do it as to which polypropylene now a potential tharma d'oeuvre and something like that the vegetables are out the intake pipe I would deal with PVC it's up it's out it's finished and I don't have to worry about the existing chimney and it also is a relatively low cost alternative from the aspect of materials and labor but all of a sudden I start to add all this stuff together and all of a sudden the condensing boiler becomes a much better alternative than just doing a simple boiler swap up because you know we all know a simple boiler swap never receives okay so the decision is made for going with a condensing boiler now comes the time to do more homework it's about doing the homework to make sure where everything goes right what size boiler that's really the first question asked answer is what times boiler do I need okay most guys will get out and check the rating plate on the boiler my recommendation is if you're reading the rating place forget about it the minute you walk out of there the rating plate really is not going to tell you what your looking couple of reasons why and while all these reasons really try back to the boiler is probably over sized for the application if a minute the pothole world where tankless coils are a big part of the water heating business the boiler typically is not sized for heating aside for domestic hot water delivery now I walk into a lot of houses sixty seventy thousand be fused after a heat load the boilers in that neighborhood of about a hundred fifty thousand BTUs they want three three-and-a-half GPM a flow rate so I have to look at that know what it's doing and then realize I have to look elsewhere for the information because I know that bore there's going to be oversized because of the application advise for a lower heat load building was the building size based on the boiler that was available at the lower expiring rate with that style of boiler if I'm doing oil was the fire grade of the boiler really set by the lowest nozzle size that the contractor was sure it's not going to give them problems yeah worry about dirty oil word about the look nozzle getting plug well you know what let's do a point 750 point six five maybe that way there I'm sure that I'm not going to have to have come back and clean the filter and they'll replace the nozzle on I'm to regular basis you know I feel that I'd like to do it about once a year okay was this the original boiler yeah my boilers get swapped out unless they're blowing brand for brand there's usually some variation in the sides particularly if this is an emergency swap out I have a customer's their heat it down it's in the middle of the heating system cease and nicole's i go to my whole fail or i said i need a boiler I needed at this size I need 80,000 be to use the response comes back well I don't have it in eighty thousand but I got 150 now I'm looking at providing for that customer I'm going to go is 150 good the other thing that comes into play is the building yourself with the building envelope and proved it may be that the boiler was pretty close in size based on the original building with single pane windows very little insulation but all of a sudden the building envelope starts to improve the boiler becomes more and more oversight when I start to look at sizing my boiler I have to look elsewhere than the boiler itself really a place to look for right sizing let's talk about a heat loss calculation in fact and a lot of municipalities the heat loss population is required in the permitting part of the the job itself I this is a great place for information green building advisor had to put it up because it is the musings of an energy nerd and it's how to perform heat heat loss calculation now when they do heat losses I can go old school some of the guys will do it the long and chic this is from the old IPR days more often than not now it's all done computerized this I'm going to be right to up this is one that I've worked with in the past but it's an easy drawing program to go in there and build the buildings that we there you know when you're finished you have a good idea of what the the heat loss on the building is and sometimes it can be quite the quite eye open when it came time for the boiler swap in my house I had an atmospheric gas fired boiler and it was in the neighborhood about 90,000 BTUs I ran my house on rice off I couldn't get more than 40,000 every way I I wrote it so that boiler in my house was over over over a hundred percent oversized in with a gas-fired water heater so it wasn't for the support their indirect either so let's go through lists to a heat loss get a BTU per hour under design conditions but he's that building and then let's work from there now along with the boiler and a lot of at instances and indirect water peter also has to be supported by that oiler itself okay and i can pull this one up superstore ultra it's one that I seen quite a bit in the middle England market and I when I work for a restroom I'd often design assistant from somebody I size the boiler I tell them he's an 80 5,000 BTU boiler and they say no I need 175 cells I'm like what that based on in their life he transferred tells me I need 175,000 because i'm using this water heater now this this number is this input is designed on meeting the hot water demands that are listed here okay so all of a sudden I'm looking at putting in a boiler that's two maybe even three times larger than the heat load of the building you know my question always comes up particularly if they gave me the plants that provide I look at the plans and I'm my question always is this is a three-bedroom house with two baths and I'm betting you're doing little flow shower heads I they really want to go through 370 gallons of hot water first our rating let's take a look at their hot water use let's build around that because my aspect this is a little friend of mine home buyer and one of our friend of a brand but I release does the tail wag the dog or vice versa we want to look at the higher of the two loads is constant of the two lows or the momentary road my main factors have trucks lesbians I having to pull one from anthro and one from viessmann the reason we probably can't read it has a lot of detail on it but also has a lot of information well let's take a look at that that order may charge now I can go in and I can figure out that the homeowner let's say they need or the building owner needs a hundred gallons first our rating on a boiler let's say I'm going with a wh 4t one hundred gallons per hour is right here it's less than 160 I only need a 60,000 BTU boiler to meet the needs of that water heater and I start to look at water resizing I should look at the application to ensure that I know what the requirements are rather than just going and trying to maximize the performance of the indirect water here now if I maximize the performance is a good chance that my modulating boiler never leaves low fire I want to be able to maximize its modulation range now I will also tell you that particularly when i get to the commercial side of things a health club a hotel or motel something that I may see long stretch as an apartment building long stretches of hot water where I need the extra capacity then I have to start looking at adding energy adding additional BTUs to my boiler size to make sure that you meet the requirements of that building but I say that's more on the commercial side of things rather than your standard residential type application so boiler has free ratings on the plate the boiler input the growth do e sì sì output the net ibr which one do i choose the gross output that's the amount of energy that's available at the back side of the boiler pretty much it's run by you know as a state of steady state test the net ibr that's fifteen percent less than the gross do II based on having enough energy for what's called the piping and pick up loss normally I'm going to jump down to the net IDR it's the safe number and make sure I'm covered for the application you know I want to make sure that if there's any losses off the piping I have have the energy available now if the boiler is running off of opal ring set and they're doing a good job of selection of the heating curve and I know my typing is insulated I pretty much removed the need for the growth the extra in person personally I have size the number of boilers were excised them off with a gross BOE but it has always been a basketball doing my homework to make sure that I'm making that right selection and the thing is by doing this sometimes it may drop down the boiler side if I could drop down a boiler size as a cost savings associated with it that may make a condensing boiler choice a little bit more attractive to the building owner let's not leave performance a chance while in the building let's measure the amount of heat emitter in the building around measures the amount of base for why is it different when somebody thinks a baseboard or with some of the Assize baseboard it's probably was based on about 600 dps per linear foot at 180 degrees Fahrenheit okay I go through I feel heat will open the building let's call the heat load 40,000 BTUs I measure the baseboard I end up with a hundred feet of beige fork there's this opportunity to drop the water temperature so here's a difficult baseboard ratings you know somebody looks at the number though you got that from clamson great information on the website i always try and use you know stuff that's clear and to the point so let's say i have 40,000 BTUs let's say I have a graffiti baseboard I through the math I need the baseboard to produce about 400 feet to use per linear foot so i go to my chart but say i'm looking at the 40 cm range as 150 fahrenheit there's my 400 beacuse Berlin Airport just I want to average that I want to supply at 160 I want to return at 140 on the design day that gives me my 150 degrees Fahrenheit okay yeah if everything is done right the house is comfortable and the heating system is running at its most efficient point now when I start to look at the installation start to look at the boiler swap out is the Buddhist waffle just about swapping out the boiler or is there more you know I Ted start taking stuff apart there's clear indication that says corrosion throughout the system so I settle it a toiler removal boiler replacement it's about replacing other things in the system okay my goal when I look at design I'm not trying to design for the short term I'm trying to design for the long term 20 to 25 years if a company of a utilities intensifying a project a lot of times that's based on in inches of patient savings over 25 year period 20 year period so let's get there let's address air separation let's address dirt separation let's address magnetic separation and I like the magnetic separation because over a 20 to 25 year life cycle there's a lot of iron-based particles that are going to build up through the system I want to magnetically separate them out so about water quality life skill formation in the boiler limescale reduces the efficiency and potentially reduces the life of the boiler itself so it's something that I want to take a look at to address women think that often comes up is what what is my food manufacturers say about it so here's some statements a tight hold out of installation manuals for different manufacturers if you look at their warranties the warranties usually will say a caveat about water quality and reference the installation manual if I look at here I have a five and eight point seven thousand and then three sevens if you're wondering who these are there is a fearless spoiler there is an IVC there is a locking bar there is a triangle tube there's a viessmann so these are the ones that I have information here and if you will get all of those numbers they're down in that seventh grade area which from a water quality standpoint isn't that hard to the water so I start to look at the bullet or replacement not only have to think about the boiler but the water is a vital part of the system as well that has to be addressed so what stays and goes i look at the existing boiler room definitely the boiler I have a circulator on the return and might be 15 20 years old that's going to go as well any aperture with event an expansion tank a fill level but that quote provender almost items tend to be something that somebody wants to get rid of now over the years as I've worked with different guys I walk into the mechanical room and this a lot more be replaced if me answer always is you know what Jody I know how have ownership of that system didn't matter whether I text you to replace that I was the last guy in you so since I have ownership so involved goes and zone controls go now so most people a boiler replacement is actually a mechanical room upgrade particularly on the residential try so the replacement in the condensing market we really have two schools we have that low water content boiler with a high pressure drop which requires primary secondary and then we have the high water content oiler the low pressure drop that can go direct connected to elicit each one separately so with the low water content and high pressure drop what am I expecting replace well it's the boiler I have to do avoid a sec circulator because it didn't exist before I need needs a primary secondary connection I need air separation it's an old building I want to see your separation I want that boiler and I want the equipment the last up to 20 years let's give it its best chance of lasting that long a new philabelle the new expansion tank and probably a new system circulator and there's a good chance that system circulator is going to have an ECM my electric company in the Northeast rebates that as well okay something that should be considered as magnetic separation let's help protect the ECM pump but also is the magnetic separation let's get that in there and make sure we catch all the iron particles before any of this it's back to the boiler anywhere out there could do problems now to simplify let's take these let's take the magnetic and let's build it all into the set for the course we set for hydraulic separator it does my primary secondary it does my hair it does my stir it it does magnetic now the beauty of it it brings it all into a sinker component and it puts everything in the right location now there's no variation that occurs it ensures that from a design standpoint it's going to ensure success of the installation let's look at a couple of installs okay so here is a used to be it was a collector excellence you can actually see the chimney and the boiler from the previous off the top of the boiler you see the to the flue pipe in the incoming air so they're going seal combustion then it has all the components we discussed as the hydraulic separator doing aarrondirth you know the boiler pump the fill valve the expansion tank in in fact they did New Zealand zoning throughout the other system very nice nice installation here's another one up in New York I'm really not going to talk too much about this I want to make sure I take somewhat on on times but something I want to mention this a little bit different from the previous if you look at the top of the boiler they're just venting the boiler out it looks like of a polypropylene material they must have met the requirements and make up here so they're doing in an air the air coming out of the space itself I do multiple boilers it just means things grow a little bit second boiler goes in a second pump and then I need to make sure I have it set up for controlling it but again when I start to look at these installations these Lisa all were jobs that went in that were retrofit that were submitted to us excuse me the collecting excellence program now let's go to behind a spoiler the need for primary secondary goes away so its boiler it's separate air and separate dirt separation I like to keep the decemberists on a retrofit job I want the air separator out where it's most effective pulling the air out of the fluid stream but I also want the dirt separator to protect both the boiler in the pump because my expectation is that you're ending that system down I refill it there's going to be a lot of stuff that's lifted up I want to make sure I protect everything I can from that system and like the previous on the separator of us considers you imagine any separation you know that's a that pump maybe be driven by the ECM and the other thing was a large mass we were you tend to have very low velocities in there if anything's carries with the velocity of the water all of a sudden I get in there the water slows down dramatically and it does start to drop out now if you haven't seen the high water volume world cartridge draw and again these are just a couple of them there's a number of manufacturers out there the lochinvar crest is a great expanse about this also those fees mamita crossville series with boiler shows a 300 but there's also a 200 series boiler very low water content and direct connected how easy in the connections this happens to be out of the walking bar Express manual showing the boilers direct connected no primary secondary now since I can't leave stuff alone that would be my system dirt made on the inside come more effective than just the wife's trainer and then a highly effective air separator on the outlet just a little bit of tweaking that I do if it was up amid this happens to be an installation I got this off of Eastman's website has actually been in this mechanical room myself it's fairfax county virginia public school it was a direct boiler swap pulled out the old boilers retyped in the new boilers and didn't touch much but again it allows them to very quickly efficiently and effectively shift over to a non condensing boiler puny from a non condensing boiler to a condensing boiler in the same installation and finally on the startup sighs don't forget the water there's our Bob drawer with our hydro fill and what the hydrophila Lau's you to do is on the job site take the local water that's available pass it through the hydro fill remove all of users also all of your iron and basically have demineralized water going into your system so that water quality now is not an issue with the performance and the life cycle of the heating system so the system goes in this happens to be the system in my base the basement of my house it's been in there I don't know probably about six years and that replaced the cast iron boiler and Atmospheric a tiny boiler with originally had a gas-fired water heater that prior to moving to this I shifted over to an indirect and my wife had asked me the loaded question how much we going to say and since it was my own house I went out on the limb and I told her thirty-five percent okay and I went through what a lot of people do when the first heating bill came in and my wife walked through the door her first question was hi how is work and then it was followed with we got the gas bill I don't see my savings so the question always becomes when you start to look at Stacy how do you quantify it and clean it up so that it actually represents what's happening okay first we're going to talk about the discussion a lot of the discussion points that I had to have with my wife by the way she really was wishy we hadn't started this discussion about 13 seconds into it so she came in and unlike unless she showed me the bill she's like we're paying more than I thought and of course I being the engineer that I am I'm like honey we don't burn dollars we burn terms of natural gas and she like what what do you mean I'm like well the fuel price doesn't stay in fist in it varies look out over here and that having to have a bar graph on it and it shows terms with the number per month for the past 13 months so my first off we going to understand that because of the variation of fuel pipe it's better to look at how much fuel were using okay now if you look at these two graphs the graph shows that we use less fuel this November than we did last so you have to normalize the fuel usage get away from the dollars and she's like well that number really doesn't add up either and I'm like well you ever heard out of the three day and at that point you actually walked into the other room but I step on top and it any day really what kind of just summarize a thing it's a it's a way to quantify heating needs and this is happening to be something that I downloaded for a come to Rhode Island my pal and you can see must a month and ice actually highlighted two of the marches bill March of last year we had over a thousand heating degree days much of this year we had under seven hundred fifty degree days the more heating degrees the higher the fuel usage is going to be so when I start to look at trying to quantify it really becomes down to therm get it down to a third / heating degree day that way there it gives me a much cleaner picture of what the fuel savings is make expect to take a lot of the variation out of the picture now the final thing that came up was really about heat loss okay and prior to the boiler part of those roller when people start are living in a situation where they feel that their came more fuel than they want to be usually your answer is let's turn the thermostat down so in my house prior to the boiler being changed out the temperature was running probably in the range of of 63 degrees Fahrenheit after the change out we were up around 70 so what happens that suddenly changed the dynamic of the heat loss the 70 degree temperature increase the heat loss out of my building which all the sudden started to erode away at my energy savings so which somebody looks at the the actual situation you have to recognize the before and after situation because with the building's energy savings is one thing and comfort is another it always becomes a balance in my house want to start to generate energy savings comfort became a little bit more important and because of that importance of the comfort you know we did a road at some of the savings because of the increased heat loss with that high a temperature nah beyond this she didn't have any any of any interest but one of the things that happens is it also how the control is set up can affect how well I'm losing how much I'm losing heat of the building so let's say I go through and I casa and I know my boiler going on up the water coming out of the boiler on my design gay has to be a hundred and sixty degrees the boiler goes in and it ends up set up not for 160 but it gets set up for 180 the higher the water temperatures will lower the efficiency so all of a sudden is one minor change happen but because it affects the entire heating season though the Green Line is always going to stay above the purple line my boiler runs less efficiently and also I have a little bit more distribution loss and all everything else that should radiate heat up there is losses that occur that wouldn't be occurring if I wrote ran a little bit low this probably is a very common you know area where somebody doesn't see performance where they they see that issue yeah now why does it happen let's come back to comfort on the purple line the building that may be set up that the hottest that building is ever going to be a 70 degrees Fahrenheit do the comfort the building occupants may say you know what I want the ability to bring it up to 74 the way to get there is I increase the heating curve harder water temperature can result in a higher room temperature under the same conditions so for the sake of comfort i sacrifice efficiency but comfort has to be part of the discussion when you look at the heating systems with homeowner the other one that I've seen half in the number of times the time to set the control up and dial it where it needs to be wasn't in the budget the code of the project so the startup occurs with the fall TV probe that everybody knows that there's not going to be any calls about no heat in the building to selected and we move on to the next job yeah sometimes that happens as well but with this it will it will sacrifice a little bit of efficiently the other thing that happens is on the pumping side of thing now a retrofit building unfrozen state limited the program stables in about 20 degrees drop in the system okay so i look at the pump hopefully i've selected for it again another feather a chart that i pulled out of a walking bar express manual that's a real nice of efficiency chart so let's say I'm designed a minute addition I expected 20 degree drop in the system and I'm supplying in 140 degree water and for the sake of argument let's say the boilers that 5410 firing group so if I call was at once 40 and I come back at 120 coins the chart I should see ninety percent efficiency out of the boiler well let's say the pump wasn't selected properly let's say it's a direct swap oh and the previous pump was pumping at a higher rate which is not unusual and the temperature drops not 20 degrees it's 10 so all of a sudden I'm not returning at 120 I'm returning at 130 the efficiency drops two points down to eighty eight percent so I've lost a little bit of efficiency in the only it only took the simple act of you know the selection of the pump to rob a little bit of efficiency oh so when I start to look at this you know there's certain things that can happen that will either build or restrict via the end result of of the swap out but from the aspects of what kind of summarizing everything we talked about the real reality of boiler room conversions is there's a lot of them done successfully and it doesn't really matter about the boiler that's in there I can drive comfort and i can drive savings I'm going to throw the words out there again do your homework know what you're up so when you're looking at your price structure particular you can talk about what the homeowners getting versus the competition out there now the other things from the present size of success and I from that pole we see it typically is more than just a boiler room swap out let's build with system so this is the build the boiler can meet the expectation of the building owner the 20 to 25 years ok and finally when it comes time to define savings make sure it's well timed out in the front the information is there and you and there's an explanation of how to figure it out on the back side as well you well the whole caught the whole carbon monoxide side of things it's really not tied to the water temperature it's really about the burner setup and most of the most of the condensing boilers out there come from the manufacturer with a pre-mixed burner which is also pre fired by the manufacturer so it's just a matter on the job site again not really tight the water temperature but it's on the job site on startup you know it's really paid off the combustion analyzer verified the settings and then make adjustments as necessary but I've never seen the water temperature have an effect on on carbon monoxide production well thanks everybody for hanging in there and the hi Johnny occurred some of the lot of the people I go on the website I max and we'll see on the next one