Glycol That Colorful Hydronic Fluid

starting all attendees are in listen-only mode hello everybody welcome to coffee with coffee I've got a really exciting presentation today and I was very fortunate to score Kevin to help us with this from Dao he's what I would call the Guru of glycol he's been without what almost 30 years now Kevin did you say what you're just a week short of 30 years or something that's right mom you get a gold watch or something for the other I haven't picked it out yet I'll get something all right well thanks and thanks for joining in des sorry I misspelled his name to by the way it's with an O R at the end but it's right at the end where we've got his contact information stuff but we're going to kind of tag team on this a little bit we've got some of the slides from down Kevin was able to bring some of his flies long I got some that I built so we're going to kind of jump back and forth and what he's going to monitor questions and I think what we'd like to do if we can is I didn't put a lot of slides in this one sometimes I overload a little bit and I may rush toward the end so I tried to keep this one a little lean and hopefully if there's a question we can get to a while we're on that slide because sometimes we get to the very end and the questions come in and we don't know which question refers to which slide or something like that from what he's going to kind of interrupt if there's something that's really important that pertains to a slide because it benefits all of us if we can get the question answered when there's everybody online and by the way this is one of our largest ever by a long shot we had close to 600 people signed up for this today so this this must be a topic that's of interest and you know it seems every time I go out west I've been in California in Colorado Montana Idaho recently a lot more glycol gets used out there because of the you know the climate up there a lot of homes up in the mountains and stuff like that so this is a huge product a huge market that in our industry both for the cooling and the heating side of it so we're going to get started again you can type in two questions as we go along it just quickly a couple housekeeping things Ronix you know we've covered a lot of different topics number 17 should be out probably within the next couple weeks here we're going to do one buffer tanks for number 17 and then I think I'm 18 we're talking about doing something on system fluids which again would cover glycol as well as water and the importance of using good quality log in the system so if you're not on our mailing list for the coffee hydronic just go to our website and sign up and we'll will male mafia twice a year something you might be interested in - Kevin there's some good information in there that might pertain to what you do yeah sounds good so I'm not going to read through this list but quickly everybody go over that and if there's a question on there that we haven't gotten that's been on your mind certainly we'll answer that but these are the ones as we you know it's Cody takes questions on our tech support line up in Milwaukee these are some of the most common questions that seem to come up over and over again and as I talked to you know installers on job sites and even the wholesalers that tell the product you know if the various suppliers across the country these are some of the questions that I think are the best address so we're going to get to those and whatever else you have so the where's and whys of glycol so I think I'll ask Evan this is one of the his flights take over and know there's different products that are available there there's different levels of the products there's eg there's PG why would I use one over the other so go ahead Kevin tell us what you know yeah so for glycol there's two families ethylene and propylene glycol they're out there and these glycols get used in a variety of applications the important thing to understand is dessaline glycol is moderately toxic so that means a half a cup will kill the average sized adult propylene glycol is approved as a direct food additive so it's non-toxic so really and you make the choice if you want a safe option that you're going to go with propylene glycol based product if you worried more about cost and performance than ethylene glycol it's the product you would use and of course there's other things out there people ask question well why buys glycol out there why not something else it really comes down to the other options really aren't that good an alcohol can be used but you have to worry about flashpoint and fire risk there salts out there but they're terribly corrosive and then anything that doesn't have water it really suffers from a heat transfer so really at the end of the day if you want to freeze protect water then a glycol-based heat transfer fluid is a really nice option for us and we've got some pictures there of the downloads that we sell but there's other fluids out there and in by and large it's either ethylene propylene glycol but now ethylene is still viable I know a bigger jobs like commercial job sometimes University and stuff I mean that's still a viable if it's not in contact with domestic water something is that the big and I think refrigeration like ice-skating rinks and the like will tend to go with with ethylene glycol based products because if the low temperature the viscosity of propylene glycol is quite a bit higher than ethylene and that affects your heat transfer and affects your pumping horsepower so absolutely ethylene glycol is still a viable option out there it really comes down to making that choice performance versus safety or environmental impact and that's a good point for skating rings we never think of that what I mean I think in our industry always think of it as a heat transfer fluid in the in a pipe but it's certainly used a lot of it I mean in the food processing industry I mean that's used in the toothpaste and a lot of different things as a now that's the question I always had does all glycol start out as a food base and then as the additives get added into it it becomes a different fluid or do you start with a different grade when you go into like a technical glycol for you know hydronic applications and stuff like that or does it always start as the same no that's a it's a great question so first of all you can't there's no such thing as food grade ethylene glycol alright so but on the propylene side not all grades of propylene glycol or food grade there are industrial grades or technical grades that don't meet the specifications that FDA establishes for under the food chemical codex so if a product is says that there is made with food grade propylene glycol well that necessarily means or implies that it meets those food chemical codex specifications and dusto grade PG won't meet those specs right so it won't have the same low toxicity as a food grade PG it really depends on on what else is in there from a contaminant point of view but it's an excellent question in the sense that nobody goes out there and kind of advertises what they really have a lot of people make the assumption that glycol is glycol and all propylene glycol is the same well it's not you need to be careful and you need if you want a food-safe type product and make sure you get that don't don't get hoodwinked and buying a product it doesn't meet your needs yeah ok I got a question here got this proprietary material limitations to using eg certain plastic piping products for instance so in general ethylene glycol will be a little more forgiving than propylene glycol and from materials compatibility perspective ok but are there limitations yes and in things like PVC and see PVC you need to go check your pipe manufacturer for their recommendation because some say don't use our products are PVC see PVC with any glycol at all others will say well you can use them but don't exceed certain concentrations whether it's 25 percent or 30 percent or whatever and then others will say we don't have any issues at all and I can tell you that PVC is widely used and so there's no reason chemically why you can't have you know compatible pipe but I guarantee you that there are issues out there and because of that some pipe manufacturers don't recommend using their product with glycol and that really is a great question because that is something that y'all need to do is to verify whatever material you have is compatible with the glycol and so you go back and ask them well what's your temperature rating for your product with ethylene or propylene glycol whatever you're using very very important that you you kind of get that sorted out before you build your system okay that the percentage you're going to use to because I know when we first are doing fire sprinkler work the PVC pipe we're using for that said absolutely not we have to go bliss er which was a really ugly tragedy government on the road you're exactly right bad that was a recent change that NFPA made where they know glycol is allowed in see PVC PVC fire water sprinkler systems absolutely okay I got another one before we move if high temperature high pressure designs are used at what temperature does the glycol breakdown well see and this is a very common questions you get and at the end of the day any organic liquid degrades at any temperature the issue is the higher the temperature the faster that rate of degradation occurs okay so we'll publish recommended temperature limits and for the case of our fluids about 250 Fahrenheit represents the maximum operating temperature okay and what that means is when we back up what it doesn't mean is everything is wonderful up to 250 and all hell breaks loose at 251 it doesn't work that way it means from going from room temperature all the way up you get a gradual increase or not so gradual actually exponentially increase with temperature and then once you cross the line at 250 you're starting to get is a territory where you won't get useful life on your fluid the temperature is too hot the degradation rate is too high for you to get a meaningful or practical life on the flue in practical life for our in our business we'd like to see at least 5 years as a minimum for our fluid to live okay and then HDS will go a little higher that but we're going to get to that temperature thing we got some charts and they're coming up so some of these questions I think will get answered too but and now pressure nothing pressure doesn't have anything to do it does a Kevin I mean not really well pressure is important in the sense that you have to maintain adequate pressure on your systems to prevent boiling okay so adding the glycol will increase the boil point but it's not terribly different from water well if the fluid itself boils that say to say 220 F and you're running at 250 you have to have pressure on that system or it's going to boil and when you boil a fluid it's not designed for that the additives tend to come out and you get loss of additives you get scaling and any issues so in the sense that pressure I mean it is critical to keep the fluid from boiling so you need to pressurize the system five about five pounds per square inch above the expected vapor pressure of the fluid and we publish vapor pressure of our our fluids in yeah and and I know we're getting to that we've got charts and stuff that in your in your engineering guide that show those all those points which we're going to get to too so before we get too sidetracked here but I mean the bottom line for us and I are in this industry is typically freeze protection is what guys are buying it for but it does bring a lot of other good things along with it you know in addition to the freeze protection and that's corrosion protection I mean if you're putting the system with all brand-new copper pipe or steel pipe or cast-iron boilers whatever it may be there's inhibitors there's products in the inhibitors I guess I would say that would pass make that metal but protect that metal from getting additional corrosion buffers the pH you know the trade-offs going to be a little bit of a performance heads as far as pumping power and stuff required but if you look at you know all the pluses I think some of the some of that sometimes gets overlooked they say well we're just putting in there keep it from freezing somebody and we talked a little bit about the alcohols I know Kevin did but the other thing that I learned recently from one of the pump manufactures they said there's no where and any one of the pumps that we manufacture that it's ever been approves the pump a flammable liquid which is what the methanol and ethanol that are sometimes used in geo systems are so just putting the pump into that application you're kind of annoyed if I would say voiding the warranty but you're using it for an application that's never been tested or accrued or so just keep keep that in mind - so um yeah I think we'll get to that pressure thing because when we talk about follow that's one of the big things is that you know potential to stagnate a collector which means there's no fluid flowing through it the pump goes out the control without or something like that so by having that pressure on that system we raise the boiling point of the fluid and down most of the other products you see out there have a heavy duty or solar specific fluid that has a little bit higher operating temperature don't you what do you do differently to the fluid when you call it HD and say it's good to 325 and so - yeah it really comes down to the additive package that you use so the in our case our regular dial frost is made entirely from food grade components so you've got that USP food grade propylene glycol plus food grade additives the HD contains some non food grade actives not at a high enough level to affect the toxicity but at a high enough level to impart higher thermal stability on it so that's really what it comes down to but you have to have the right additive package when you when you decide to freeze protect look like all's because what works for water isn't going to work for the live coals it's totally different chemistry you need to be careful and I think we're going to get into more about that in a future slide but really when you once you decide I need to freeze protect then you need to understand what that means with respect to how glycols change the your ability to operate yeah and so that one of the first ones I want to talk about is the freeze protection since that does seem to be the major motivation for people to go out and consider buying a glycol to put in their geo or hydraulic systems whatever it might be there's a couple different numbers to be aware there you know the freeze protection burst protection and some of them even put lists three different temperatures a freeze protection where you know an ice crystals start to form but you can still pump it then there's a flush point that from what I understand it becomes like a snow cone that it's not going to burst the pipe but the pumps a scientifical type of pump can no longer move the fluid through the system so you're not going to be able to move heat to the building or chilled water whatever it might be once you get to that point and then of course the burst point where it's going to freeze the point where it expands and anything I've been I'm missing there that I know you have tables for all that and I think on your table that I show on the slide there for the doubt therm by the way then that's the eg right yeah and so they really comes down to freeze protect like you said that's the temperature at which ice crystals first start to come out of solution and if it is a day a little bit iced isn't going to cause damage with respect to a rupture of your piping but as you go cold or below that freeze point and you get more and more ice crystals form ice has got a lower density than then you know liquid water and so you get that expansion that and that's what that creates the pressure that causes rupturing first protection means you've got enough glycol in there that it prevents too much ice from forming and it prevents the ice from kind of agglomerating and you know forming a lot bridging I guess across tubing that can because of you know rupture that way so at the end of the day freeze protection is the safer way because if you if you've got a freeze point that's lower than the coldest anticipate chapter you all have no chance of rupturing your equipment because ice will never form first protection you can get away with a little less glycol but you got to make sure your fluid is capable of flowing to relieve that pressure as ice crystals form and we kind of talked about that and literature some more but ok here Dana perfect here's a question are these flute freeze slush and burst points for idle fluids well I mean it doesn't really matter yes I mean the the so the freeze point is your respective of whether the fluid is moving or recirculating the first point is a function of not just the fluid but also the equipment design so if it's a stagnant fluid and it's in a coil and it's a very narrow gate or pipe spiral thin gauge material that's going to have a rupture strength is not quite the same as you know heavy gauge straight length steel pipe see and so the first protection is a little bit we published data but at the end of the day it's it's probably conservative in the sense that you made your equipment may be able to handle lower tempers than what we publish but then again depending on what you have it may be the other way so it's dependent on equipment and as well as the the free point on the fluid if that makes sense to you yeah and that's a good point because you know a lot of the heat exchangers on things are getting thinner and thinner wild copper I mean if you have schedule 40 steel pipe and you cut a lot more fudge room in that type of pipe than you do some of those paper-thin competent I'm seeing some of these uh you know arrow heat exchanges and stuff not gosh it's like like tin foil gauge metal that they're using anymore it takes the cost out and stuff like that so that would be more of a consideration to make sure you got that low number to protect that yeah exactly all right and then the other biggest mistake that I've seen from what I've you know learned in the industry is having a clean system when you put it in there because even brand-new pipe that you get off the shelf is going to have potentially thread cutting oils or something from assembly if it's iron pipe or flux in there or when they extrude the pipe or if they assemble a boiler and they're using lubricants or different oils and stuff like that so even a brand new system really should have a cleaner put through it first before you put a because you do get an the glycol the very first day you put it in if you haven't uh clean the system properly so there are some some numbers that have been put out there for what the water should look like that used to blend it with but clean it first and then if you are going to blend it on the top it's going to buy a full-strength I called it these are the numbers that I see published everywhere as far as what but the question then becomes how does the average contractor know this how does he know that you know you can test hardness pretty easily but as far as a chloride himself it's how would the you know contractor on the job know that his waters meet into spec at some point it's usually either by the pre blended or make sure that you've got a device or that you're buying a deionized water to get it blended on the job anything I mean I miss Romero yeah I think quite frankly I think you should assume it doesn't meet these specs if it's if it's potable water or wherever your source of water is even unless you're purchasing purified water whether it's distilled the ionized RO the odds are what's coming out of the tap isn't going to meet the spec and so it comes down the old adage do it right the first time because if you don't meet these requirements you're going to pay a price later on in life and really that that's what it comes down to it's you know people like us we learn from our customers mistakes and so then we publish recommendations to try and help the next one and on it goes and so you know follow the recommendations that they're not made lightly they're they're based on real-world experiences and they're you be better served to try and do as much as you can to do it right the first time well I'm that's excellent advice because as I look at that list the only number that I you know not a tester could find out on the job would be the hardness I got a little hardness test kit there but I have no idea how I would test for sulfates or chlorides or you know some guys have tds meters they can read the conductivity but that's a good a good point just assume that it's one of those as probably if not all of them we're going to be out of whack that it sound it's going to yeah the conductivity for the water itself is a good proxy for for quality right I mean pure water has no conductivity so if you can do that that's not a bad test don't go with conductivity when you've mixed it with a formulated glycol because that connectivity will be off the charts because of all the additives are in the glycol but the water itself that you use the dilute should have very low electrical conductivity and we did have another fella Jill expert that came into the webinar a couple years ago for us and he chooses his own leader has a regular electrical meter and a solo glass of water you can stick it in there and see what the resistance I mean you could turn that into a TDS number I guess if you had a multiplier or something for that but I mean that's really what it is if there's minerals or anything in the water it's going to read across those two probes when you stick your your yeah not then that's exactly what they they do in a lab when you when you ionize water that's how you you verify that your ion exchange resins are still functioning and they don't need to be replaced doing their job the other caution of course when you do put it in the hydraulic system is make sure that you've got the pumping power again but when we get to the end there's you've got tables in the back of the engineering guide from velvet show you how to do this to do this calculation or here's a formula if you're if you're a number cruncher type of guy but just an example that we put out there let's say you've got a customer that wants you to come over put antifreeze in the system they're going to Florida for the winter and you go over there this is a fairly typical system 15,000 BTU little boiler and some 3/4 copper pipe we've got a pump in air that's going to circulate that to time with 48 watts but then we put a 50% mix of propylene glycol there and it makes a huge difference and the amount of pump that you need to move that I mean huge relationship you know 48 to 68 watts something like that you might be able to get away with the pump that's already in there if it's a multi-speed pump you might be able to bump the speed up but there comes a point when you might have to increase the pump side to make sure you can move that amount of heat to it now that's not going to you know again to cause it to freeze or something like that that just means at some point if the pump was undersized you're not going to be able to move those many BTUs through the piping so just know that there is a multiplier and tables available to come up with that correction yeah and it underscores the point made earlier that you know you're adding glycol for freeze protection if you don't need freeze protection you would take an unnecessary hit in your your system capacity in your pumping horsepower bike by adding the glycol yeah and we'll get some more slides on that as far as the heat transfer too so you take a hit on the treaty transfer as well as the pump ability if that's even a word of the fluid right that's correct and this is where it's gotten really complicated in our industry is more and more we're seeing I mean back in the day when I started in the plumbing business we had cast-iron boys and copper tube and that was pretty much it some steel in there with the expansion tank and we had three metals and there's a fairly simple system but now you know the efficiency equipment goes up and manufactures look for other materials to make equipment up with it cause to make them last longer now we've got stainless we've got lumens with a lot of different alloys in them we've got composites are starting to show up in the picture now so I know that presents a challenge for the people that blend these fluids to come up with a fluid that can cover a wide range because what works for copper and cast iron might need to be blended differently for illuminance for example I know most of the products now have a an al label or something like that saying that they are suitable for aluminum or aluminium alloys I guess I would say in this system yeah it's a good point and not all fluids are just mean it's difficult melena Beca it's impossible to have a flu that is you know provides 100% protection to all different kinds of metals you really have to be when you're designing a system fewer is a lot better than better option that when you have multiple mouths when you start doing aluminum with stainless in carbon steel and copper it's almost impossible it really is to protect all those metals from corroding something's got to give and so you're better served to minimize the number of different metals that you have in your system where all possible but to Bob's point about if you've got aluminum and it's your temperature is elevated you want to make sure you pick a fluid that's designed to protect aluminum because that's typically going to be your weaker link so read the label and choose the proper product that meets your needs and I think the number is something like a hundred and fifty degrees and aluminum right is where it becomes oh well that step per our fluids that's what we recommend if you're not going above 150 you're fine it's not it's not going to be a problem when you get over the 150 you can have problems and dal being very risk-averse we don't want any problems so we say don't go above 150 with our fluids now we have other fluids in Europe that are compatible with aluminum and if industry trends continuing we may be doing those bringing those products here in North America right now it struggled with why aluminum is you know the increased usage in in a home heating I get it in a transportation vehicle where you're trying to lightweight the vehicle so what there are better materials from a longevity perspective than aluminum and it's one of those things that we'll see if we need to bring up our European products over here that's fine aluminum is not a great heat transfer metal either and compared the copper and some of the other things out there so you're taking a hit there too but the from what I understand sometimes when you bring out the products and now I got to make sure they meet all the other requirements as far as being safe and other things so something that's blended highly or you put more on chemicals inhibitors and it might not meet the and all the other requirements for low toxicity and suffering that's good excellent point is very true if you need to have a product that's entirely food grade materials that really ties your hands in terms of what corrosion protection you can what metals you can fully protect from corrosion so at the end of the day they'll get a product that's designed for the materials that you're using and you can see the pictures on here what happens when you don't if you just have plain water or you just put plain glycol in that plain water you're going to be guaranteed to have a corrosion problem and those examples are curved and steel but other metals I could I could show pictures of other metals and then you see the one worth or value carbon steel looks brand-new that's five years as it explains in that slide so it is possible to have formulated products that are going to provide you with the corrosion protection that you need you need you just need to make sure you get the product that that meets your system needs one of the challenges that we came across is you know when somebody's high temperature solar collector started hitting the market these evacuated tube collectors the stagnation temperatures on those as well over 400 degrees I mean you can go up to 500 degrees so finding the fluid that could and we don't want to see them go into that condition but knowing that it's inevitable at some point that that system is going to go into stagnation that what kind of fluid to use in that and from what I heard I don't have proof of this their tumblr chemicals are some of the glycol that were coming across from Europe to go into those systems and make sure they had the protection might not have you know made that EPA rating or might not have had that approval on them so like I say you get a food that will do it but you certainly don't want to risk that getting in with the potable water somewhere so I hope it doesn't drive us back into do all heat exchangers to be able to handle these high-tech fluids that that's where we get pushed because of the you know for example aluminum or something like that we get a chemical that now we got to really protect it from the domestic waters so this is a friend of mine a contractor out and I hope he's tuned in today I see my son Max is on there hi max and this I thought is interesting that the job he goes on he takes sample the fluid and then takes it back to the shop and you can test it there for different things and you can see on the right there those are all different um you know fluids that he's taken out systems up in Colorado and you can see the condition of the fluid someone look at it's brand new I can see on the upper left their fluids good and bright and clear like a you know colorful like it went in then some of them are getting darker some add sludge in the bottom um some of them obviously didn't have any protection in there just clear water them but so you can see it's happening out in real life there's quite a range of what's going on with these fluids so I mean typically in a boiler system Kevin what would cause a glycol to go bad where it's not seeing you know solar 300 degree temperatures let's say the board never operates above 180 degrees we're seeing fluid that's going Brown or bad like that is that from oxygen getting into it typically or what what caused the fluid to fail no it's oxygen heat and failure to maintain the pH and the corrosion inhibitors in there acceptable ranges the discoloration can be caused by thermal degradation oxidative degradation and corrosion and and so really it's a great slide because a visual inspection of your fluid you may not be able to know exactly what's wrong with your fluid but if it looks funny it looks bad the odds are there definitely is one or more fluid parameters that are on a range and so it's a simple but powerful test you can do for your your fluid and so if it goes if you put it in at water white and it's starting to look amber well you're probably okay but here you know you've done something to it and then as it goes from amber to brown to black well if you want to get it out of there before you have a real system problem yeah and just you know a bottle of water take a bottle water with you drink the water on the jobsite and put some in there it's probably the very first best step you can do is just take it out and look at it smell it it has a funky smell when it starts to go bad like that that dark solid stuff this certainly smells a lot different than the new stuff out of the bottle but in some cases it can be saved with an inhibitor I think we'll get to that a little bit later in some case it's time to just flush it out clean it real good and start over because they can't I'm not affordably be salvaged right yeah not very true this one here I put in this was a slide that we use for some other thing but it just really shows any kind of build up inside a pipe or heat exchanger whether it's a boiler or even a heat emitter a panel radiator radiant tube or anything that has the transfer you know the heat through the fluid in it if you get a buildup on the wall of that tubing or the wall that heat exchanger it doesn't take much of a buildup before you start hampering your your heat transfer ability so if you've got a boiler with a big burner in it you're trying to get the heat from the burner into the fluid that's in there and you've got a coating a glycol that's caked in there cuz it's been burned because you didn't have flow rate or something to it you're going to take a hit not always the glycol going bad and causing problems but also the heat transferred when it's in there trying to do its job so it's it's kind of a double whammy there when things start to go bad with fluids if they start coating out we talked about this already I think a little bit early maybe won't talk about tomorrow but I did learn something doing the research on this geo fluids are typically at a lower percentage because we don't have the extreme temperature range that we might have in a in a house or something but I think we talked about that more pumping power might be required depending cars on the fluid percentage to I mean I my suggestion always don't you know mix it any richer than it really needs to be to do its job just because it comes out of the bucket as a 50/50 mix you might not need it that strong and so that could be an order differently or blended with some deionized water to get it down which a little bit more pump friendly and a little bit better heat transfer yeah but I think you have to be careful I wouldn't agree with with it's 23 degrees I think that's a little too weak of concentration and one of the problems that you have with glycol that's a weak concentration is they're very biodegradable and you get too weak you're going to have your fluid biodegrading in your system which is not a good thing as you get up in concentration on 20 to 25 percent or more so you're going to be in the 18 F or Colt or lower freeze point then there's too much glycol in there it basically imparts osmotic pressure which D heids dehydrate cell tissue so file organisms can't sustain themselves at concentrated glycol of greater than 20 25% depending on the product but you go below that and that osmotic pressure is not high enough it's it's bug food it's going to feed off that glycol and and you can you talk about odors you'll get some really funky odors when you start having a pile following problem so bacteria really is growing bacteria absolutely stays airborne waterborne bacteria invert we get into your system if you don't introduce any bacteria or fungi you're fine but if you do you've got bug food if you go to a week of a concentration so be careful yeah well that's a good point because I never thought the low one we're always worried about the high end but good advice there Thanks well yeah test test test I got that the that's the key to you know maintaining it and catching it before it goes to bed like some of them that we showed them a couple slides back there I mean this is what I use I think this is what you recommend in your in your operating guidelines and your technical brochures there's a little refractometer for testing the freeze protection so the one on the left here that's basically what that's doing is you just open this little window you put a drop of it on there's actually a little dropper on the side of this tool and then you close the window and actually when you push it down the light comes on in there so you can read the scale really good but I mean for the cost of that tool I don't know why you wouldn't own that I think it's just a little bit more accurate than the floating ball type of thing and it's a certainly durable product so that's the one and then the other important tool here is the pH meter because isn't that going to be the best barometer for the average guy to check the pH that's going to tell you to go back every year let's drop and drop and drop and that number one something's going wrong and number two it's going to get to a point where you're going to have to either boost it up or replace it well definitely low pH is a clear-cut indicator you have a problem but pH within that range 85 10-5 may or may not be telling you the whole picture so when when metals corrode they tend to release free hydroxide which keeps the pH up in the alkaline range so you can be fooled by pH but clearly if it's acid you have a problem it's in that range you still may have a problem and that's why I go back to the visual inspection because if it still looks water white or clear and you're in the pH is good you're pretty you know that's a real good sign that you get everything that is is copacetic with your fluid but yeah the refractometer is way a good way to check your verify you got the freeze point those the glycol concentration that your your uses I know that's a great tool simple tools to test and it does read this one I think reads eg impede you when you look at the scale yeah they usually will have a dual screen or dual scale on a viewfinder and you look on one side for the ethylene the other side for the propylene so you need to know what fluid you put in there it can't tell the difference but it can tell you what the freeze point will be for either fluid I like this a line that you got at the very top here that you know go back a week or two later and check it then and that gives your baseline so then every year when you go back or every couple years when you go on a service call for something check it again because if it's move and that's the indicator more than you know where it is but the fact that it keeps moving down yeah that's that's an excellent point yeah get that baseline make sure you did everything right once you once you can make a end if you do if you do it right the first time you will reap the rewards because you will have a long performing and and an adequately performing system if you do it wrong you're going to pay a price is just a matter of when you know but now there's a pH ever go up or does that always go down is quite close well I can like say we'll go up and that usually is a telltale sign you've got a corrosion problem so if you're using aluminum and the pH goes up over ten five guaranteed you have a problem with your aluminum heat exchanger so the aluminum breaking down and affecting the the fluid kid yes it's forming aluminum hydroxide right and now hydroxide pushes up the PA age so yeah be very careful about pH that's outside that range because that definitely is an indication you're having a problem if it's outside that range but don't be lulled into sleep to think it on within that range I don't have any problems look if I thought of them and then what would a contractor so he looks at it's within this range somewhere but it's real it's getting dark it's I mean it's brown or it's a coffee colored what I mean what do you do I mean did it said well if it's a small system I wouldn't mess around with it I think I would just replace the fluid if it's a large system you're talking a you know school or hospital hot water heating loop well then that's when a company like that comes to mind and we can we can analyze the fluid and do the tests needed to know whether that fluid is still acceptable for continued use or not or whether it needs to be adjusted and add more inhibitor or boost the pH back up there's a lot of things we can do but the important thing I guess for the contract just find out why it was bad was it because it was you know mishandled when it was first put in or is there something you know somebody opening that system a lot and getting into it along a lot of oxygen means something's causing that to happen it would just doesn't go bad for no reason there's so that's right and the fluid analysis will help you get to that you know track down the reason why that fluid is bad and you know and you can't tell everything from the fluid but if you if you do a comprehensive fluid and else and then combine with the knowledge that the contractor or the owner has for that system you can normally sort with the two sources of information you can normally track down what what went wrong and how to fix it yeah and I mean this is a classic example where you would find if that aluminum is brand-new not to pick out of aluminum but just since we started with that I mean here's a less noble metal it is the probably weakest metal that's going to go first but this type of test here would say well that's what's in your fluid you know you're a little bit of right yeah we can look at it and in fact we we measure all the metals will check for aluminum copper zinc steel or iron magazines and chrome will look for all of the types of metal to be there and if they should but ideally if the fluid is within its recommended ranges you won't see any of those but if you see one of one or more of those metals usually there's some other parameters whether it's pH or your inhibitors been exhausted so be a reason for why that that metal content goes up so it's just part of the service that we provide for for larger systems and so it's something if you're not taking advantage of that Yannick because it's the service that Dell provides to help customers maintain their fluids and I don't know how you came up with that number of 250 but I you know well I mean I guess all the good Oh get out of the air I don't know but if somebody's having a problem we've of the smaller system I mean they can contact you or you know their distributor or they're getting it from and certainly there's help out there right so here's an example of what the report would look like and again I don't know that we need to go through every one of those but it certainly got a lot more information on there that you could get at the job site no that's right and it's really interesting how you know you all that information on one piece of paper like that yet it takes about a million dollars worth of a lab equipment to generate all those numbers and so it's it isn't something you're going to have at the job site you couldn't possibly afford all that so again it's it's something that we provide for larger systems if it's a smaller system you know he's going to cost you more to analyze the fluid than it does to replace it so that that's part of the reason why the 250 gallons are power concentrated just put out there and then on top of that very very difficult to adjust a small like a five gallon or 10 gallon or hundred gap even hundred gallon system very difficult to adjust those in terms of adding inhibitor or pH booster so just start over and at that you probably want to put a cleaner in there and clean out the system exactly any suggestions for cleaners or something like that yeah it's a good good question so I'm an advocate for keeping it simple so I mean if you do is the brand new system as you mentioned it's good to flush put use water and maybe a mild degreaser something like as simple as trisodium phosphate you know a half percent solution of TSP and water is a nice degreaser that will help flush there's other products out there that you can use and you know you consult your your distributor to see what's available in your area but by and large keep it simple at the only time you need a really complicated descaler and varnish removal type of products is if you've had a problem you've overheated the system or you use very poor quality water and a simple water TSP type flux isn't going to do anything there in that case you may end up replacing some of your equipment too if it's maybe more cost-effective than trying to use the necessary chemical cleaners to get all that stuff off your pipe walls and heat exchangers yeah now this slide this was a presentation that Jim paling did a webinar for us here a while ago and fluid quality for steam boilers and boys and this was a part of a research he did and he found this lvoe research paper and one of the things that happens in our industry Kevin is there's a lot of us not a lot but too many systems out there quicker better way to say that have a tube that doesn't have an oxygen barrier as the water the fluids heated in there the oxygen migrates through the wall the tubing the molecule and it gets in there and obviously consumes oxygen scavenger whatever components in the glycol package that does that and then the glycol gets depleted and things start going bad and again going back to heat moisture slide there a lot of those bad burned glycol these Sol we're in fact from old rubber tube or poly butylene systems that that allow oxygen to get in there so that's what this was showing here how the I don't know what you can read that is pretty small print but anything about oxygen ingress into a system limit is that well no it's exactly right anything you can do to mitigate or prevent oxygen ingress is critical to the lifetime of your fluid so really that the lifetime of your fluid is a function of temperature and and the degree of exposure to air or oxygen and if you've got high temperature and you've got high oxygen ingress you're going to have short fluid lifetime it's going to degrade very very quickly and this was an excellent series of papers that Rossiter published in the 1980s and there's a number of them and what you go through all the different metals and interesting you have one on what copper there copper is an incredibly powerful catalyst for any kind of water soluble organic whether it's a glycol or an alcohol or whatever it takes that catalyzes that oxidation even better than say carbon steel or other metals so it's it's really interesting they did a lot of good work but at the end of the day it comes down to temperature availability of oxygen versus fluid lifetime and in a type of metal so those those things can affect your your fluid lifetime yeah what we've learned - about the oxygen ingress with these uh you know the pecs tubing's of the poly butylene of - means that didn't have an oxygen barrier like I said the higher the temperature the faster the more oh - ingress there is so if you're running a 180 degree baseboard system for example your fluid might I mean you could be talking a year you could destroy a fluid like that if you've got a lot of that tubing in your run at those elevated temperatures so absolutely true at that point it's time to separate that system of the heat exchange or something so we've been talking around this I guess went to the slide but I mean this is everything we've been talking about yeah these and the air ingress I mean not air but Oh - right I mean air oxygens in the air but if it keeps getting there in there because people say well how is air getting in my pipe if water isn't leaking out well it's not air like you're thinking that we breathe it's actually the molecule of oxygen they can get through the wall of the tubing or in around a pump sealer and around the packing or something like that so I think we've hit all these points pretty well here that's I could say at some point you know you can't buy enough inhibitors it cost to put inhibitors in there and to try and sell which a bad fluid I know what do you say somewhere in the seven pH is it's time to start thinking about get that out start yeah and also as those degradation compounds continue to form over time and temperature then you reach a point where they get the concentration is so high it doesn't matter how many how much adds if you put in there they can't compensate for the negative effects I see these degradation products they overwhelm the good that negative package can provide so that basically forces your hand you said well I said I've reached the point of no return I got a got to replace my fluid now and that just time back to earlier slide we talked about glycol quality that's why it's so important to start off with a glycol that has a very high purity you know has very very minimal amount of contaminants to begin with because they're going to form with time so if you don't start off with a high quality glycol it means you're going to get to the end of it the fluids life a lot soon so and I appreciate me we weren't trying to talk turn this into a fail spill for a dowel because I know you make the base product for probably a lot of different brands that these guys are buying you know over the counter there but I mean when you see a lower cost I mean there's a reason that time glycon $6 a gallon some is $12 again I mean there can only be one even sort of why there's a price difference and that's probably a big discrepancy in price but I mean it's like everything else you really do get what you pay for it in a fluid like that and if it's uh you know customer with a pretty expensive system I mean that's really protecting that system for the life of the system so it's really not a good place to try and to save a few bucks at clucky I mean we're not really a player in this game you don't really have a dog in the home as far as you know we do sell a glycol fluid but as far as equipment stuff like that I just want to show a couple things on the right that we do have dirt separators and magnetic separator that if you do have a system that's you know the know why your pipe system that you're going to have debris coming out of it regardless whether there's water fluid in there you know we've got products to help keep that out of a harm's way out of the pumps and out of your systems so notice we got left to it the grid down the last couple um yeah I think we talked about that so we talked about being a pump head expansion tank it has to increase a little bit because of the fluid this is one here that it's harder to get the air out of a glycol and then this hit home for me I was at a trade show here awhile ago and they had a clear tubing display of an air elimination device and I noticed the fluid was a green colored fluid and so now you got the glycol or something there don't you say well yeah because we keep them in our trucks in the winter time we don't want this clear display the free so we put a little glycol everybody said but you know what we got to keep this non foaming agent because he said the temple doesn't work very good when we pump air in it to show the demo of how the air comes out with this a piece of equipment there is Salim he said it can take like 15 or 20 minutes for that air to clear out of this little system because the glycol what is it about it I mean is that my home stuff out of my butt here does that make sense no no you're exactly right the air release properties of glycols are very different than water and it comes back to viscosity difference right so propylene glycol is going to be even slower air release than ethylene glycol and of course water is the ideal water a very rapid air release compared to glycol so it's just a function of the physical property of the glycol mainly the viscosity and so you have the fact when you're doing an installation just remember it's going to take longer if you never use two glycol before takes a lot of time a lot more time to vent all that air or the system and so just don't be fooled thinking the hey I got all out but and they'll also be full thick and you've got a foaming problem when really you might just have an air entrainment problem you didn't remove all the air from the system a foaming problem means those bubbles just don't collapse in a reasonable amount of time so you've got coalescence and then you've also got bubble collapse to be Toscana look at so yeah again one more difference once you go down that path you need freeze protection understand the differences that that glycol also imparts it's not just both freeze protection so how many things go in a glycol when you mix I mean it's not just one or two chemicals I mean there's quite a list of things that have to go in there to do all these things anti-foaming that pH buffer the pass rate the metal the obviously the base glycol I mean like a dozen I mean what goes in there you know it just depends on on the formulation with respect to the application that you're trying to serve but yeah you're going to see you know no more excuse me at least three and then no more than a dozen somewhere around to read in 12 depending on what you're trying to do that's typically what we see yeah I am what I would add from a kalapa standpoint here that if you do want to get this air out you know quickly or as quick as you can this type of air separated you know with the media in there as opposed to just a scoop ramp or a little flow type of air vent is going to certainly do a better job and a quicker job of getting those little bubbles out that go through there so that's about it you can put down about the lunch line here we got to keep growing so it fluid again this is one of the products that we sell it is a base product of dial base in there but this is a we say 325 is that realistic there is that just um you know it it's realistic in the sense that at that temperature and below you're going in you should if you do everything right expect a useful fluid lifetime of five years or more that's really what that means obviously if you're running the same fluid at 150 versus 325 you're going to get longer life than if you're running you know right at the top at 325 so if you can think of it as that number as a tachometer you know if you're redlining your your car all the time you don't expect that engine to have the same number of effective hours as you would if you're running it more reasonable rpm yep well put all right typically when people are going to put glycol in a system they're not going to hook it up to domestic water feed because you got the potential to dilute it so I just put some ideas here you know there's a lot of different products out there you can see big commercial ones a little small residential that you basically put your fluid in there and then it just maintains the pressure and so if you're betting they're out you got to replace them fluid this little device here is just going to pump it in then what are we shown over here well that's when we talked to member I said biodegradation okay okay that's fungi that feeds off glycol all right now you glycol always has to be sealed to you cant keep another container that isn't tightly sealed or open because then this can happen in there right if you've got air well you can above the the water line so on above the water line those tank walls will be wet and that's that's a ripe area for bio growth so yeah yeah very good point so this isn't filled up and filled you can get the growth going and above the whatever level the fluid is in there yep and then it can wash off the walls if there's any kind of you know you could have to be growing and creating and putting a problem in your system if you're not number one this if this was sealed that wouldn't be an issue but I guess a couple takeaways from that is keep this filled number one so you don't have that you know space where something can grow in there but also it's got to be a tightly sealed unit all right and this is a little system that Mark Etherington gave me this idea this is one I made if you've got to take like all that boost up a system or fill a solar system that hold a little bit you can pump it into a tank like this you know pump some like on here and put a little pressure reducing valve and just take it out for jobs you know to carry a big pump at a car we've got you know our fill valves can be used for that our new when the three-quarter here actually has a gauge and no check valves so you just put it on there and pump it in and blow it back out into the system um we talked about temperature control I think we've hit everything here any questions what do you before we get down the last cup of here this was another one about compatible but all the components in there a lot Bob I did it but I guess what I have a question we have a number of questions but I think that we may have to answer those offline yeah we're getting close to the end here I would say most of the pump manufacturers in our industry for hydronic the stuff now have seals that are compatible with glycol most of the equipment that we use will say you know glycol compatible to actually give you a percentage typically and so I don't I don't know that you'd have to ask pump manufacturer give you a special type of seal or something like that is that your experience - Kevin most pump manufacturers will have a recommended seal for glycol yes recycle an old fluid what do you do when you take some model you've got some fluid you want to replace um some ideas here I've been able to take small quantities you know a couple five-gallon buckets like - an auto repair shop or a quick lube or something they obviously when they drain your radiators they put glycol in the drum and they recycle that somebody comes and picks it up and they buy it a lot of the your state or county website might have info wood is recycler for that large quantities we've used safety clean before when you're talking to me hundreds of gallons like a school or University project or something work that's got to be taken out and disposed of you can hire them they document it make sure everything is done properly illegally and then you've got that yep you know that sheep to approve that you took care of it it does break down quickly right I know on some of the the glycol that they spray on airplanes for the icers or that sometimes it just goes out in a pond and then it breaks down quickly and some airport sits flush down the drain right marry biodegradable as we've mentioned yes yeah it's just that you don't know what's in it as far as if it comes out of a heating system and some of the metals have broken down in there and you're flushing that down the drain it's better to dispose of it properly so absolutely and follow all your your local and state ranks yep as always this is a great book is this available online - I don't know yes it is WWL France com will get you there yeah this is a great I don't know how often you guys update this but I've got one from years ago and they've got a more recent one this is a great piece of literature that again it's not an ad it's not a sales piece here it just really explains you the how and whys of glycol and stuff like that it's got tables in the back I'd address the you know the specific gravity the density all the different things that we've talked about I would caution people don't try and use an automotive and RV anti freeze in your system I know it's tempting because of the cost of it but they don't have anything in here that's right for what we do anything on automotives quickly cabinets well they're exactly that design for protecting automotive cooling water systems so they're going to have additives that are specific to aluminum at high temperature and those additives are not going to have a long lifetime with a long life automotive antifreeze about about five years and so you want to replace it every five years follow the manufacturers recommendation so yeah that that's reason why you wouldn't put it in an HVAC system because you don't want to replace that fluid every five years you want to have it run hopefully 20 years yep and I mean this is at the end of the day what we're trying to avoid is that little smiley face on the left or coming home until your Porsche under a foot ice there I don't know where this came from I think Greg Gibbs out of camera exhales first gave it to me but I don't know whose house this is or whatever but that probably wasn't yeah that's a great picture is that something see alright Wow there we are right under the money I didn't leave much time for a poll but we're still going to do our poll for that but I want to thank Kevin for coming by today and this was good information and thanks for everything it did well my pleasure I really enjoyed it and there's contact information