Magnetic Separation In Commercial Hydronic Systems

the broadcast is now starting all attendees are in listen-only mode well hello everybody welcome to coffee with Colletti this is mark Olson appreciate you dialing in today we have folks from near and far so I appreciate your taking the time to come in speaking of Nero fire here we got Bob Bob is actually over in keeping pull up the map Italy this week we'll have Bob back here next week and then next month he'll be giving a presentation coffee with Colletti dealing with glycol so related to our topic here involving magnetic separation excuse me kind of turned my phone off and and water quality it's a topic near and dear to my heart magnetic separation it's a straightforward technology solving a real problem in the marketplace including commercial systems which will be a topic for today some housekeeping certificate of participation all of you will receive automatically from us don't worry about contacting he'll come out to you by email from our marketing group that will be automatic modelers here a lot of stuff today we have action-packed content and you may want to come back and take a look at it so this is being recorded so you'll see it on our website within Rex usually gets it up there married within a couple of days and then lastly a PDF if you're interested in a hard copy just give us a salchow send us an email in response to one of the emails will be out with you and we'll be happy to give you a copy if you want to have that for reference as well so magnetic separation and hydraulic systems I'll be covering sources of dirt formation and within those sources a particular type called ferrous oxide I'm sure you've heard of it we're going to gallop down into the details of this particular type of debris and some of the problems it creates for us as designers and maintain errs of hydraulic systems will get into well how firms will talk about problems we'll talk about the important rid of air and system componentry in a hydronic system will talk about the stink of mass as the numbers you are familiar with magnetic separators already some probably not matter those that are familiar we're going to talk about some things perhaps you didn't know and if I do this right I'm going to pop up a pole here that you'll be very interested in this is where to go launch it okay so I'm going to give a couple seconds here for you to take a look at this pole the question is having you previously specified so or installed a magnetic separator so go ahead and do that and see kind of where everyone lands here now all right so I'm going to give it one more second before closing it up and I'll closer up right about now all right and I'll share the pole with all of you okay oh cuz lip 16 or forty percent yes there is an understanding of magnetic separation out there today okay so Wow hopefully you can still see my screen if my guys know what you can't see my screen let me know otherwise i'll continue on other dirt capture devices role of chemicals and then all of on we're going to talk with using a lot of installation examples starting here ongoing sources of dirt formation and hydronic system need really three categories one being hard water our water is laden with calcium and magnesium magnesium salts if you will when he did they come out of two lotion and nick and present a problem such as this commercial condensing boiler had back inch down in chicago using basically just city water from chicago which isn't too hard maybe I forget 610 brain something like that okay you know vatican by the way we did webinars on water in a pass if you want to look at that more g typical and look at our archives galvanic attack there is a shot from Jeff person to geo sources the Fleming situation but whenever you have molt excuse me that are largely different on the elements scale of a mobility as an example this T this nipple as brass and this t is is steel connected with one another if you have water that has conductive capabilities but basically with elamans in it you can set up based at the galvanic attack in Connecticut taxi to be more pronounced when you have other issues in your system such as this left oxidation competitive desire focus for today specifically within that ferrous oxide or known as iron oxide in the marketplace now of course there's Lulu max I there's copper oxide and other types of corrosion that takes place but pride primarily the key one most prominent most difficult one to address is ferrous oxide so we'll talk about 30 sac side here is a great shot from Ken down in Kim chocolate in Indiana this is a failed believe commercial boiler this is a cast iron boiler and if we look real closely you can see some red here on this particle we see as our kind of friends like an artist we've seen white over here and we also see basically a bunch of other different types of particles so a lot of times foreign objects or dirt exist in our system is not in homogenous form but in multiple forms around a magnet process by the way we probably have a bunch of stuff jump up to that magnet indicating iron oxide so let's take a look at iron oxide in more detail and from a chemical standpoint and I'll get through this pretty quickly how does how does Paris actually even come to exist in our system well water reacts with iron and oxygen creates ferrous oxide in hydrogen and the ferrous oxide up here continues to react and form water hydrogen and fe3o4 otherwise known as magnetite okay magnetite is a common form of debris in our hydraulic systems it also exists naturally an earth surface there are some magnetite pebbles a chemist might refer to that as ferrous ferric oxide to this technically precise but we'll stick with magnetite at a minimum that's easier to remember now we probably back in school the school days you remember hearing about lodestone back in the in elementary school lodestone actually is a magnetite with a slight charge to it it was what early compasses were made out of it here's a magnetite lodestone stone with nails showing its attraction a little tidbit of information if magnetite continues to react with oxygen another product that could exist in a hydronic system and does it is FB 203 more I guess technically referred to as ferric oxide or or hematite and then Paris oxide Fe oval ferrous oxide really is at the old that's the common in a hydronic system but very common particle in industrial figments paints and things of that nature now we're going to take advantage of one characteristic that all these oxides that might exist in the hydronic system and that is they have trips they are attracted to a magnet or a magnetic field and now you're getting at a preview where we're going with this solution okay so let's take a look at some photos here starting with hematite now this obviously doesn't even take this might be something this actually looks like the the bathtub up at my grandfather's farm in northern Michigan when I was a kid come on markets you it's your monthly bath time believe you me we'd let that well run a long time before hopping in and we never had any iron deficiency problems either by the way buddy wait asked rusty water and very similar to the type of water that you might spill out of a hydronic system if you're going to purge it mister cop here had a system where had basically a radiant system where oxygen was permeating into the system through the radiant tubing so there was a common ongoing source of actually into the system and perhaps coupled with that very good air separator is led to what is hematite or a reddish color if you put the system in you find reddish color it's often associated with also something else in the sift in the system perhaps chunks of rust in the bottom of your boiler that could be solved that earlier example okay another form is magnetite right fe3o4 here's another hydraulic system where it was Persian it's not black this is from New Hampshire all right black color more prevalent indicates less oxygen in the system and when you see hematite in the system here's another shot of another system in purged and and the magnetite no matter I'm worried about it being sensitive God's not polluting anything these are natural materials as you know magnetite in and water but it's this one's a little bit more of a tari look and you can tell it's stuff that's mouth can be kind of tricky so to figure out what the deal do with this designing a component to deal with it as well as how to do it how to address in a systems it's very useful to take a look at magnetic properties you can tell from the fun on this this is right out of Wikipedia but I'm going to jump down to the hardness scale 5.5 to 6.5 you're talking pretty hard material and by reference you're all familiar with last and how hard that is that's more or less than the same neighborhood a penny your comment penny would be about three so we're talking about some harder stuff and specific gravity another 10 via steel as you see here but obviously heavier than water by a long measure and that property comes into play here in just a few slot in terms of what this can do in a hydronic system it's useful to take a look at what this views has in a microscope and here you see nice if it was just round all the time you can see very jagged edges and kind of this chris will inform associated with magnetite and in terms of size at the smallest talking point 05 micron that by reference is about one one-hundredth the diameter of a human hair if we can't see it right microscopic and it's big Assizes might be both a pinhead size as far as the net opinion that you stick into a needle cushion probably half that side of the the figures so we're talking microscopic too small at best that presents some interesting issues for us so just think about how magnetic behaves in a system and just take a simple system you ever a heat source it could be a chill or two we could use the heat pump or something we may have a say a circulator some type of distribution network to keep things real elemental here and so magnetite is basically the oxidation of water or I'm sorry iron from water in oxygen and it could take place anywhere assistant blessed day we have black pipe is our source of iron and if we were to take a look at black pipe on the inside beginning the crowed you see something like this magnetite starting to form a nice but really small as I mentioned and by themselves individual particles they will do anything all right the problem is they accumulate now when they begin to form nothing happens they stay attached to the metal that's part of them but when the circulator kicks said fluid velocity of washes them away only for them to start circulating through the system now that your regular shape that mentioned it kind of float around like a dandelion seed if you will to either one it caught into something that should be in okay or two to settle out somewhere the pump turns off because the specific gravity is heavier than water they kind of settle down right and then they pick back up and get washed away again only to find somewhere else in the system over time they can begin taking up and create problems and I'll show you a photograph of a second but order that rather do is don't let them have a chance of doing it as you're floating around floating around let's let's grab now we could put a centrifugal type device in there like a a motor-driven device for separating cream from milk or I don't water from oil for it residence but we would have to use electricity and doing that it would be expensive but we're going to take advantage of magnetic properties to do the same if not we can come up with something like this thank you mr. graves from heat Meister this is a failed boiler session and it's a classic look of magnetite building up in the bottom of that whether magnetite settled down got washed away settle down eventually started taking up creating the insulation barrier where he can no longer get conducted away from the flame or the gases right the list piece of the metal this piece of your catheter becomes relatively very hot over here relatively cold and as us out there who have been around these know that what happens crack thermal stresses set in and now you have a leaking whether it has to be replaced thanks Richard by the way I'm not quite sure what this is up here there's gooey stuff perhaps this is a radiant system that has some biological growth forming it or someone has a real good sense of humor and put some carmella net photograph it almost looked pasty if you didn't know otherwise other problems that create in hydronic systems because of the small grittiness of these particles wearing the bell rings here's a valve needing to be replaced on a system known to have magnetite problems okay panicle steals lift seals type of devices that you could see it more of a split case or in suction or in line type of a pump as you see here and I don't seem leaking here this wasn't leaking we don't have a photo of that yet but any of you guys out there to be gracious enough to send us one for future training we appreciate it but all of us have seen leaking mechanical seals resulting from the abrasion even if its ceramic and a ceramic tech face feels it will succumb to in time that grittiness of iron oxide now oxide by itself sometimes combines with other elements to create a sludge even in copper pipe that has relatively high velocities going through it can eventually get clogged up as received in this copper pipe and continue on with our issues of problems a commercial condensing boiler fighter tube here's a cutaway over here here's the same type of boilers coming to the effects of a concoction of iron oxide along with probably we can see the oxide my imitation of red over here but we also see kind of a white color here it could be scale forming with that before that boiler needed to be replaced mr. Jim paling from first apply was raised enough gracious enough to be a guest post last week last month and water quality did a fine job this is a nice photograph you can see darkers much probably a hired mix of oxide causing a problem before that won't fail and flat plate heat exchangers here's a big one they're very efficient I'm sitting in sending heat from one part of the system to another and separating the system at the same time but they all have in common very narrow passageways between those plates right to give you high efficiency they don't like Fox ID either here's a failed section of fold a part of flat plate exchanges failed a combination of oxide and some scale before this one have a problem and we all know that I play did changers are part of our tools and designers of hydronic system that this beautiful job Colorado jobs submitted to us on the kelevy excellence program a few months back picture of a balut in a permanent split capacitor type standard pump now pumped or circulators more aptly referred to by the way thank you boy have they have basically they require special attention especially the high efficiency ECM call them smart pumps become more and more common these are all great pumps make the left top to bottom they don't consume much power as compared to a standard permits but capacitor pump and we're smarter allowing you to be very mmm sophisticated and how you can have them from forming your system the residential sighs and now becoming more and more commercial I attended a webinar from a very big pump manufacturer a few days ago and was heard heard that up to 10 horsepower now these commercial sized smart pumps are now in place all these e CM pumps electronically commutated motor pumps have something in come and they have permanent magnet rotors all right wet rotors here's a couple they got taken out we hung some tools for them to give you an idea of how strong most permanent magnets are in those rotors and and that's exactly what those are there permanently magnetized those rotors they don't require a electric field to induce a motor to create the torque on the rotor the magnets are already there permanently and thus becomes kind of a challenge in some cases as it relates to water laden with magnetite here is our own kind of rendition of generically a permanent magnet type motor wet rotor motor here's your windings over here copper windings on either side here's your stack of limits Green indicates the canister in which to the rotor rotates in okay so basically we pull the impeller out of here but the impeller would induce some floatable passive bearing has the permanent magnet keep things flushed out cool and lubricating the bearing all along they're beautiful but what we want to make sure we do as is we want to make sure that we keep them clean and this permanent magnet right here The Closer that magnet can get to the stator over here the more efficient this pump can be so manufacturers I'm going to assume are trying to always keep that a very thin distance but at the same time you have to have enough distance to love water and anything else in that water to flush through okay and so that's because sometimes the channels for certain design circulators and as here's an example of a permanent magnet rotor what we pulled out just to show you what happens is that the iron oxide can accumulate here you can see that and it could create a little bit of a drag on that roller you want that rotor be really slippery you want to create a drag on it and get enough magnetite in there you could actually get that more to starts falling and as this one did that we found in one of our visits this is a another pump that stalled the technician went in and disassembled a pump honestly and cleaned off very sparkly new again put it back in it option and as we understand been fine ever since so which is a good example of what magnetite can do to an HTM pump out of you know provide them the work harder to do the health of P or delta T type of algorithm that they're programmed for now if I believe this you can see the tell-tale side up so this is a pretty hard shaft right here and you can see the scoring that grittiness of that oxide causing a you know somewhere out there so sources about the jumping too okay we just talked about some problems let's come to well what is them ever even get into a system because that's one of the three ingredients for creating iron oxide right so with air sources are there well firstly any hydraulic system is going to have components they get old and begin the where and as they begin to where to begin to leak and so if they end up needing to be replaced that section of the hygienic system gets isolated off repaired makeup water perhaps comes in makeup water has air in it and so there's one source of air that can get into a system sometimes the placement of the pump in relationship to the expansion tank could be the culprit sometimes an undersized expansion tank could cause Eric to come in through air vents or air separator sections the expansion tank by itself needs to be looked at well one source of error is the diaphragm is in that expansion tank perhaps air at on the cushion side of that diaphragm begins to through osmosis thick air up into the system only to end up becoming waterlogged now that's a really slow process and not to bit of an issue a bigger issue is more common is the Installer connecting the expansion tank up to the system before pressurizing the system the system should be pressurized independently of the expansion tank so if we want 30 psi on our system say it's a three or four story building you may want 30 psi no mechanical room it's like if it's on the lower floor we want to make sure that before we connect that expansion tank up put that thing on 30 psi if we leave it at the 12 PSI or whatever it comes out of the factory from hook it up all right it might quickly go to almost 30 maybe 28 psi and the contractor might take the Schrader valve forget about the 30 and think he's good to go but now you've compromised the system you might end up in a pressure relief valve on the boiler spilling off some water causing work in the incoming water on wake up you might end up in a very cold time of the year the air vents in the very top of your building actually instead of being under pressure actually having pressure at that part become less than atmosphere of bringing air into your into your hydraulic system so there's lots of different ways air can get into the system to of mean that doesn't have oxygen barrier this is an example is just a nice shot from able of our manifold with all kinds of different tubing that just is a good example of showing there's a lot of tubing out there and especially during them seems like during the recession start there was a lot more non oxygen barrier tubing going into radiant systems well it's cheaper and we see the same trend in boilers you know more condensed more non condensing boilers going in perhaps cast iron then as the economy starting to pick up more convincing voters again going in when their money for freed up so a good shot of text this isn't necessarily non oxygen barrier but it's a good shot of showing what kind of a home run System here with the specs mr. Luker's and good designer of systems here in Wisconsin okay so we talked a little bit about how air can get into a system I guess the savvy engineer knows that or designer installer know that in time irrigates andheri system the third ingredient is fairest sources you know what's what what in the system can actually be Ferris well it doesn't take much imagination to add a glance know how many sources of ferrous components could be in a system here's one sent in from Coletti excellent chat program I think it's for can process because I extend an old boiler over here I see some new components very high efficiency boiler some great or circulators even a nuchal a pierre and dirt separator up here but you can see a lot of ferrous components over here and here's that same job with it was like a new Daris boy they're going in what is a good place to pause and save as it relates to iron oxide or any form of debris the designer and the Installer used to be aware of that when you have a retrofit system it's a issue is heightened why because your system has already been a little bit compromised and a minimum minimum your piping or your heat emitters could have already built up oxide here's a classic case of an incubation area for iron I guarantee if this has iron oxide hitting the bottom of that very beautiful looking radiator okay now that the Installer could try to blow that out as good as you want but he's always going to have because of the books and crannies iron oxide in there only waiting to somehow end up eventually being carried away to some other part of the system at a minimum causing the efficacy of that read or not to be very good unless he wants to go to the expense of taking all these jacked sections off and cleaning them out which is going to be a horrendous job Thank You mechanical up for that photograph by the way so not only the those big cast-iron radiator but still radio and become a more common here in North America here's a shot from someone from Coletti excellence a wall of low temperature high surface area panel radiators perhaps ease or Biasi I'm not quite sure but as a form of radiant heat right without going into a surface with with to me and I had the chocolate when I came across this this is a i called up magnetite man it's almost like magnets I trying to get out that artist is a great job and worked perfectly for this webinar I guess why we have our tongue and our cheeks one of my favorite of mine and Mary's favorite all-time movies is gladiator and we were happy to hear that the sequels coming out radiator that's do good anyway so back to our topic at hand here other sources expansion tanks this gives you a good idea of expansion tanks of course being a source of if you didn't think otherwise ferrets corrosion in a system fact that this expansion thing failed it was sent to us and our Kevin took a look at it and you can see what happened is it quoted from the inside out as always happens pinhole started and push the pain away and it leaked and you see the leakage down here okay now this is our own expansion tanks we can pick on ourselves in this case this was a solar job we think maybe maybe the solar collectors got overheated too many times and that glycol got acidic pH dropped to now you have acidic water combined with oxygen in a recipe for accelerated corrosion and many times your weakest link in your system is your expansion tank as was the case here and this wants to come to the effects now while we're on expansion tanks here is a great-looking job in submitted data collected excellence ground source heat pumps the designer on this if you're listening excellent work by the way but it's a good couple expansion tanks got to because this system has a heat exchanger but this designer could have elected to thicken that expansion tank and turn it upside down and connected that into the pipe system doesn't care the expansion tank doesn't care it performed the same alright the diaphragm would perform the same but when you turn an expansion tank upside down you have air bubbles that collect and start forming they like to go what up to the top of the pipe because they're buoyant right if you have an upside-down expansion take now you have a chamber by which that era can start begin collecting in there and since you're there now is closed to steal you got air steel water corrosion so some experienced guys never put through expansion things upside down just for that reason unless the expansion tank has a special design like previous one manufacturer offers to protect that part with a plastic covering okay Ferris components while we're at it you might otherwise think this doesn't have any various components because it got aquatherm and perhaps a stainless steel heat exchanger I'm not sure if that's the case brass component but here we got steel expansion tank and maybe even a buffer tank over here this is a glycol system by the way and again reminder that Bob will be on next month talking about glycol so if you have black belt systems often in your market you want to hear about that side of the business and how to handle like all tune in next month so so we got one of the solutions be as designers now I have other finger tips for addressing to make sure we have no problems with Aaron attack well I'm going to borrow an advertisement from our division in France parlez-vous francais you don't have to read French to understand what the Senate rape or for the abolition of particles that are in solution evolutionary voila this is our importer defense thermador and profit was running some type of promotion nice opportunity to talk about our international business so one of these madmen ate dirt separators works for an example this is a small magnetic separator from appeal we did make a year ago a strong magnet is in this collar that normally is around the separator here and as the fluid that's made with magnets circulates through this dirt separator that has a magnetic collar the collar with magnets attracts the iron oxide and when it comes time to get rid of it the contractor opens up the valve leads it pulls it down in this case into a cup and just under the show in this demonstration what happens in hospitals magnets are its neodymium rare-earth magnets that we're using in our celebrators puts us this erratic up and the magnetite jumps to it pretty quickly so it's a very strong in effect way ridding a system or preventing magnetite from causing problems to begin with so it has to be out by our French counterparts on every packaging like to put together in association with other assistance and add that we did or our market in Quebec so our folks on the phone here today from Quebec there you go and this now our commercial magnetic separator I'm going to go into the inside is here in just a few minutes but well the guy's not used to the sixty percent they had amused a magnetic separator we've been supplanted is now very successful in North America five six maybe seven years now just employer passes and guys and use these magnetic separators here's one from Manitoba this is brass one magnetic separator all right very nice job actually has an air separator over here there's nothing wrong with having a air separator the magnetic separator in the same line here in fact we make a combination combo device that does the two functions in one I think we come back to this photograph as one of the collective excellence submittals at the end of this presentation and some excel it right here could I see I'm will look behind time you can see I just wanted to show some examples of dirt separators with magnets of collapses by the way you may have noticed an air vent screwed into the top you can do that make a provision for it even though this is a dirt separator you do get rid of some air here not as effectively as a dedicated air separator but for a very small cost but I never been to the top of there you can do the same thing in our large commercial magnetic separators as well by the way even though in this case you can see that the designer has a separate air separator in the system system as well in our mind you can't have too much air separation in a system here's another magnetic separator as well next job by the way and up in Alaska to separators to double the pleasure this job if you haven't seen it it was a retrofit I think of the church radiant heat with tubing that had oxygen low oxygen barrier also had steel radiators okay a recipe for oxidation is going to take place iron oxide will form even with very good air separation may be minimized so the contractor here and designer elected to ok we'll just double up on our magnetic separation capable to keep the heat exchanger the conditioning condensing boiler is on this job as well as the pumps to be free of any issues okay all right let's go to commercial now so we've talked a lot about this guy here we want to talk about this guy right so what did we do when we design how do we design this to give you some insight look as to what collection does to developing product magnetic fields penetrate brass or plastic for that matter but not steal so we couldn't really take a very strong magnetic collar and do like we did with our residential products imported here because we would have a dilution of the field inside the working area that separated instead he decided to go up with a rod of magnets into the heart of the dirt separator and I'll show you that detail in a second and again peek under a tent a little bit in our early development just to prove the concept we took a system known to have magnetite in it and took it offline put in a couple of parallel separators one a standard just standard dirt separator over here in red and then our prototype we removed the drain valve and up through the middle put in a rod of strong magnets ran the system for a couple of months isolated this isolated these guys and then purge them took a look at what was inside very interesting so we purge them here were purging what was it the contents inside of what was collected in the separator we did this for both separators purged it into a yellow pocket our findings the separator that was just the standard separator without it a magnet we have as follows you can look down there and on the bottom of the back you can see chunks it is a dirt separator by the way it better have some dirt in there right some chunks alright but we have very clear liquid alright microscopic small particle magnetite not much got picked up by contrast our prototype you can see the tari water alright and to give you an idea of how much magnetite we ticked up we took the magnet out dipped it down in here as you would a vanilla ice cream into a vat of chocolate and pulled it out and what did we see you saw this the magnetite jump to our magnet all right and cake on now it has kind of this knurled rounded look here only because we found that it's best if we kind of altered alternate magnetic disk with spacers magnetic disk space or magnetic this spacer to be most effective and we see that same trend and some other prototype testing we did this was actually done up here in Milwaukee it's a design we ultimately didn't go with but horizontal version but you can see the magnet side this was a clear separator so we can see what was going on the inside but you can no chuckles by the way we can see the magnetite start to form here all right in the same kind of bumping reflecting the permanent magnets that we have in our stack so we took perfected the design and here's a look at it showing the Gauss or magnetic fields and our artists Katie did this but as debris comes in even faris debris enters the magnetic field gets sucked into the magnet before having a chance to float and get back out to the system somewhere and adding the mash back in to complete the assembly you can see what's going on here debris comes in its captured and only to have the what happens is if you haven't seen this before flow comes in it dramatically slows down it hits the impingement element to be deflected downward anything that is cut a ferrous content to it gets sucked in by the magnet and when it comes time to blow down you open up the valve well first you pull the mag now slowly lower down the valve and we'll see an example of that there's a close-up of it now if the dirt separator is located near the floor and you tried to pull a straight maggot out it would they would come in conflict with the floor you wouldn't be get out so we articulated our magnets so it's in sections and here it's kind of cracked now it stays together just by the strong force of the north side of this magnet in the south side of this magnet it's unbelievable the force and you'll see that in the next slide here if you put your finger in there let the anything snack back on its own you would not be a happy camper these are some very strong magnets that so caution is applied the call is called for so whoops just ahead of myself so if you take there's two magnets and to demonstrate that we just took two magnets and put it up against a 10-pound weight I just showed you what was going to happen and see if we can pick it up off the floor and here's Cody doing that and especially for you bodybuilders out there you can appreciate for truly how strong these rare earth magnets that are used in our magnetic separators as well as what the pump manufacturer is doing smart pumps it's the same type of magnet so now in addition to our standard dirt separators that have been popular for some time Thank You mr. Muller from Colorado for sending this photograph in by the way in collecting excellence we now have the added version of a magnet enhanced dirt separator this is from our system actually here in Milwaukee we put this on only two and a half weeks ago and because we had some problems with magnetite from time and time different types of problems problems honest as you think we're a hydronic manufactured we wouldn't what we do and some of those problems affected the different types of pumps that we had over the years so we ran the system for 18 days and then Cody shows before we blew it off what was inside to see what was going on started to bring the magnet out slowly brought the magnet out the brass leave that it rested is still in the system by the way it so that Magnus is all these magnets are always drive by the way pulled it out blew it down comes out pretty quickly by the way and again you don't have to take the system offline and here's what we found magnetite laid in water we took the sleeve out of the dirt separator put the magnet back in and dip it into the bucket to see what would happen and as we would expect yours the tardiness boiler Inc as is sometimes referred to attractive to our magnet okay it kind of gives you a feel for the attraction now real quickly yesterday we said what will happen if you had a lot of magnetite so we just Kevin and Cody put it in a beaker the magnet this is dry oxide by the way pulled it out and you can see I mean this is very heavy stuff and the attraction if we had a bigger bigger and more time we probably should do it again with a wider speaker is just really how much capacity these magnets have in collecting iron oxide okay so a good dirt separator is vital I'm going to jump pretty quickly here i'm going to pick it up our air separators are very very good at ridding themselves of air a lot of attention is given to our our needle valve you wouldn't do the engineering that goes into that or stainless steel stem our pin flow to make sure any scum or anything doesn't have any effect on our on our air vents we get out to the field quite a bit here's one in Milwaukee that's yours truly this is our friends that hot water products there's Howard there Jack Jack Daniels by the way yep Jack Daniels I play softball with a guy named Johnny Walker and I always thought it would be fun to have Jack and Johnny on the same team we can find a Jim Beam and Jose Cuervo with computer infield would be in good shape so we do a lot of air separators here's our air in dirt combo now with magnet Aaron dirt combos are very popular item for the designers out there y versus an air and a dirt separately is because there's a lot of value packed into just one component the error elimination capability in the dirt elimination capability is the same as an errand separate air and dirt separator so I'm just showing you some photographs taken around North America there's a job out in California with the chiller having a or endured separator boiler before that building got buttoned up here's another one out in Colorado alright happens to have a separate air separate around there not because they wanted more air separations because there's a heat exchanger between the two this is a heat pump system thank you Britannia that might be Tim Timothy zhuhai by be on this webinar and so now we got the air and dirt camels with magnetic separation available to the designer okay now I talked about I want to talk about placement here just one example if you want to look at where to put air and drip separators check out I'd ronix number 12 I grown-ups number 12 lots of examples of placing air and dirt separators with a whole host of designs so let's chill water system here we have a chiller we have a distribution system here and so the air elimination performance of air in dirt separator their elimination is always best where the weather water temperature is highest which in every chilled water system is going into the chiller and also where the pressure is lowest and now we have a big primary circuit pump over here so we know over here our pressure is probably lowest we're missing an expansion tank probably should be right about here in any event good selection for an air and dirt separator because not only are we maximizing the air and dirty elimination capabilities of this device we're also protecting the close passage heat exchangers on that boiler and perhaps an ECM pump over here the boot or even the standards flip case pump with mechanical seals as we talked about in earlier slides alright so magnetic separation and hydraulic systems I'm going to pause and say something right now then i forgot to say if questions are coming to mind type them in i'm probably not gonna have time to get to them but we're going to answer all those questions and then we'll publish for all the people listening in here today our answers to those questions so everyone can benefit so no worries we'll get to it if we don't have time to today chemicals real briefly maybe five minutes magnetic separate pH levels the pH of a system takes increased importance when there's oxygen in the system that might be if there's a lot of oxygen ingress or if there isn't a very good air separator okay if you keep pH in check perhaps in most systems of slightly alkaline level neutral 7 perhaps eight to ten I've seen everything expect from 8.2 to 10 8.5 to nine point eight pretty much in that range eight nine ten slightly alkaline you will decrease what oxygen can do to your system in terms of corrosion you can eliminate it but you can minimize it okay be mindful of other system components such as aluminum and stainless steel the chiller manufacturers and the border guides that will specify the level appropriate for them now we're not chemical experts over here and I'm going to regurgitate some things just from researching the topic of chemical additives we are a fan of chemical additives or a fan of demineralized water too by the way but we're also a fan of chemical additives oxygen oxygen scavengers oxygen bangers kind of the same thing sodium sulfite as an example very common they do get consumed if you have an ongoing source of oxygen so you need to check you know and they'll make a lot of chemicals they can come out of solution and create their own solids or dirt issue to contend with other I'm not going to say that word but other chemicals produce i protect the film on the metal and decreasing the effects of oxidant oxidation you have to be careful about mixing and circulating when using this type of chemical chromates more rates nitrates you can read up on this back to chromates you got to be careful in high concentration levels not to have any degradation effect on EPT EPT type the elastomers or rings lip seals in the light check and check your water check your fluid from time to time to make sure everything is okay and always check with your local rep or manufacturer on anything related to chemicals there's a lot of good sites out there too aradia professionals Alliance a good one that I used in some of that matter okay I got about 15 minutes left I'm going to take 10 of those and then we're going to have voting for the collects Lintz and maybe a time for some questions if we get to that you might be thinking if you haven't been familiar with something called a dirt separator as a designer you might commonly use y strainers but not too familiar with these dirt separators we've talked about whether they have a magnet or not and I just wanted to spend a little bit of time on this issue because it looks like if sixty percent of you have not used a magnetic dirt separator maybe a big chunk that you haven't used the dirt separator so y strainers are very common very good product here's the collected job they had why strangers on them to protect perhaps those Armstrong pumps or other equipment here's some y strainers to protect the exchangers in these locking barb weather's nice job from HVAC technical services by the way and so y strainers one of the things about y strainers the way they weren't water comes into a basket and they start to filter from the inside out and take a look at a bigger basket this is a four-inch unit that we pulled out the strainer and the way they work is debris collects inside the mesh the smaller debris is allowed to continue passing and I didn't notice but these look like rocks very pretty rocks i'm not sure if you're whatever see rocks act is a hydronic system but it kind of gets the point across anyway smaller particles unlike a dirt separator are free to pass now ultimately the smaller particles will start separating out just before the strainer actually clogs up and creates its own problems in the system the circuit that that strainer is trying to protect you might start that system of flow causing perhaps a boiler goes out and low flow or low pressure cut out and then someone has to come service that product you hope for that you know better doesn't happen on one of the components by comparison these dirt separators i'm going to show a brass one by comparison as i indicated as debris comes in the debris gets taken to the bottom of the separator and allowing the working section always remain free of any type of us debris what does that mean to us as designers and engineers is that we have a lot less pressure drop here's three curves here's a standard y strainer when you looked at a one inch as an example a very new Y straighter clean basket hasn't been used yet once it gets and this is the pressure drop as a function of flow I'm sorry I jump the head to that that's saying y strainer once it gets clogged seventy percent clogged look what happens to the pressure drop it really starts to create cosmos perhaps variable-speed pumps to have to work a little harder or could create the problems i mentioned earlier a dirt separator by comparison significantly less pressure drop and as it does its job getting rid of debris it doesn't change the pressure drop as it as it works now i'll jump ahead dirt separators and this is an Eiffel it's a good example maybe why you want to come back if you want to get into details here but this is a dirt separator if shown in green here this is basically the efficiency as a function of particle size but the upshot is here y strainers and special tea strainers they can only go so far in terms of reading a system of debris these type of separators can take debris down to 5 microns out of a system pretty easily and this was a chart that we did before we did magnetic separators added to our dirt separators and as you may remember in my ruler slide the diameter of magnetite can get pretty small and we now have a way of taking out even that small magnetite and hematite reports around in the system ok I have ended my material here of salary went through a lot of things quickly but I wanted to allow some time to maybe get a question or two but we're going to first let you know what's ahead next month Bob comes back talks about glycol in July mr. John Seigenthaler is our guest presenter talking about buffering thermal buffering and hydraulic systems in fact that's the topic of our next hydronics design journal alright coming on in July and so the timing is kind of nice one complimenting the other in August we have another guest speaker an engineer from Chicago area from engineering works and he's going to talk about Smart Objects them all of our products have revit files available to your designers as well as all the other documents you need from a manufacturer like us and gem is going to talk about using them in general in a hydronic system in doing so you'll show you kalevi bem files you'll show them being imported connectivity pipe connectivity and maybe for the younger designers out there it might be a particular interest to if you're kind of new to solid on smart building information modeling objects combustion jody samuel our manager of engineering training who is the east coast this week is going to talk about combustion theory and concepts for hydraulic systems it's an important topic you'll get into how condensing boilers work traditional large mass boilers and a follow-up webinar will be on condensing boiler efficiency I grant existence for condensing boilers so back to back and then we wrap up the year Bob does proper hike baca proper component selection for boilers and application fundamentals number one and number two he's going to take schematics of hydraulic systems and talk about why things are where they are in about those products just that have you visualize this a very potent concept and how to educate why do you select this type of balancing valve why do you put it where you do why do you put this air separate over here and not over there and if you do put it over there what are some of the problems you might find and it will walk through all the key components typically defined in a hydronic heating system okay so I John X number 17s coming out soon and these are all free for all the new people on board here today and if you haven't signed up do so it's easy just get on to our website register and a hard copy comes to your desk okay before we do this I failed to launch another poll that you'll be very interested in so I'm going to see if I can do it and then we're going to get into the voting all right in your experience what equipment has iron oxide caused problems with all right in your experience from what you've heard or seen as designers or witness as installers wholesalers what kind of and you can do multiple choices here if there's more than one this is more information now for us to know okay and so we're going to let this kind of I still a lot of people voting on here not voting selecting here and so we're starting to see what's taking place there alright starting to settle out I'm going to close it because it's now very few and then we're going to share there you go all right very few people don't know seems like if you have a problem you pretty much know where it's going to take place circulators seventy percent boiler is more or less the same chillers and heat pumps twenty-eight percent other equipment thirty percent if anyone was to expand expound to us about your experiences on anything photographs like anything we appreciate your photos we'd like to give credit form when we use in our training slides but this is very interesting for us to see and probably for you as well so i'm going to close that timing when are these products available from Coletti the commercial derp separators are available now they are available as a SME certified separators and from 2-inch currently from 2 inch to 6 inch they're also very shortly going to be available in non asme in case you your job does not require that so we're pretty much locked and loaded on that we've sent them already and we're waiting for some photographs from the first purchase order that those are now available the other question on the availability of the combination the air and dirt separator combined with the magnet when are those available those are available in q3 will communicate more details out and those as well be will be from to edge 26 inch okay okay what is your opinion and using the ionized water and sacrificial anodes in a closed loop system and maybe I'll do one more after this we're big fans on deionized water or also referred to as demineralized water and in fact I think as we saw in Europe we're going to see North America go more and more to this why number one is that it doesn't have it eliminates any minerals that could come out of otherwise come out of solution meaning calcium and magnesium and wreak havoc on your high temperature surfaces number one number two is it it it eliminates it minimizes the electrical conductivity characteristics of the fluid inside the water meaning you don't get that battery cell effect that causes a galvanic attacked okay now in doing so you want to make sure your pH is right and so there might be I need to go in and adjust the pH when you use demineralized water but it dramatically reduces the need for adding chemicals in and the cost associated with maintaining those chemicals as you guys know is an issue so that's our opinion on that a related question is how about sack of a nodes in the closed loop system we don't have personal experience on this but we have seen earlier an earlier webinar done with us with by Jeff persons has had success using sacrificial anodes as you would a hot-water heater in becoming the basically where galvanic attack will take place whether using sinker or magnesium we've questioned by the way we recently experienced a tremendous amount of reddish silt in a brand new system what would be the most likely cause of this well the brand new system mmm brand new system you're not going to have him hematite form that quickly our opinion something else is causing that red it's hard to guess what that could be not sure if you use a chemical that could be perhaps a propylene glycol or delight does glycol create the same problem in the system or is it only water good question and Bob's going to cover this in spades next month propylene glycol often will be supplied to the market with inhibitors and those inhibitors will help protect some aspect of the system perhaps it's oxygen scavengers perhaps it's a stabilizer but glycol with inhibitors will help with the problem that we've talked about relative to oxygen won't get rid of it and as we heard from jim palings good around the industry for some time now and a lot of experience adding a magnetic separator by the way adding a magnetic separator to just a separator our cost does not that much more than just a standard separate incremental e i'm going to point percent you know something like that fifteen twenty percent maybe a little bit higher than that a little bit lower somewhere in that range so it's really good insurance all right i am way over here now thank everyone for joining us congratulations to the winner of Colletti excellence any comments suggestions or anything else be in touch meantime we'll be talking to you soon on a future coffee with kepi