Maintaining High Fluid Quality in Modern Hydronic Systems Part 1

all right welcome everybody coffee with coffee this is Bob poprad roar we're up in Milwaukee I got my whole team here I got my staff and one psychiatrist to help us through this so I'm gonna go through a couple of housekeeping slides and then we're gonna try this new format where we open it up so thanks everybody for tuning in and here we go but today we'll be talking about the topics in the number 18 water quality and I know we've done water talk a couple times before but we're getting a lot of questions about this a lot of concerns a lot of interest so we thought we would do this in a format that we can answer your questions instead of you know they dribble in weeks by weeks and I think everybody benefits if we could do it in a format like this or everybody could see me at the same time so that's that's going to lead us up to where we're going next so so we're going to talk about the two typical types of closed-loop systems and by closed loop I mean a sealed pressurized system you know open systems to me would be like a combined domestic water heating system we just want to focus on the two types of systems that are most common in the hydronic world the Geo world the solar world which is water glycol so a couple pictures of some jobs that were sent to us recently that show some nice work there's some of our products use and stuff like that so that's the that's the systems that we're going to focus on today all right and so here's Paul question number one and in your experience which has been most problematic and where I was going to choose one and as you can see that we put some we made the tired we wanna we want to really focus in on what the most common problem is out there and then we're going to give you a seconds here to Woody's going to run this poll to answer this question and then we'll chat about it so there's the poll thanks woody right on the ball and by the way on these polls if there is an answer that doesn't apply if none of the answers apply to you better just to skip the poll we're looking for folks that have some experience on the particular issue so we think most uh most people will answer but just in case you feel like you don't have an answer you don't have to answer yeah so ocean scale formation floods debris accumulates it was one about anti-freeze for you alcoholics out there and then the maintenance if you are using additives of the maintenance to that and these are in line with the type of questions I think we come that come in Kevin right on our technical support line people have questions concerning managing corrosion and the maintenance of chemicals and alike so we thought there'd be a big stand out fatigue stop oh this is interesting so defeating result would scale formation thirty percent was the primary issue with fluid quality we probably would have guessed would be a higher are from the phone calls that we get and the things that we see from the field interesting Bob and Jody and Kevin Mike Rex we see a sludge and debris accumulation as a big issue bigger than I think we probably would expected right and I would say that's in some of the areas were that would put in over the years and you know again we don't know who's responding to these but it's certainly but the western states where a lot of that tubing was put in that would make sense because that is you know we start on persistence so well managing the food quality to as far as if someone were to define sludge and define debris they might have different definition legs could be that soft matter from precipitating out from perhaps maybe chemicals getting added people could also address sludge as being that you know their higher NOx I basically could erode away from the walls of the system in finest way somewhere and accumulate so obviously it's both are probably issues it looks like here yeah and not and I think surprisingly low was loss of antifreeze property I think that's being managed pretty well out in the marketplace but look at maintenance of chemical additives that's a pretty big one too so a few surprises there for us okay let's go on the run questions about that so what he can close the poll and see what people see here okay the back holds my other right all right so let's define good fluid quality so we want a fluid in there that loves the middle amount of corrosion whether it's oxidation galvanic where you've got the similar metals in their iron consuming bacteria convert one out there it's possible there's ways to know that when you have a system that's certain solve over there allows the minimum of scale formation like we're talking white lime scale formation typically that's you know you see that in domestic water applications too but that's the middle amount of blue sediment you know call that sometimes turbidity under a certain micron rating that's kind of when you hold a glass up and you see a little cloudiness to the water that's sometimes true bida tea and of course in high cost systems that would make sure that the inhibitor package in here is staying up you know that it occasionally these boots did which we can test with pH meters and different meters so that's kind of our how we see it we've taken questions everyone do another slide there um yeah okay I think this is a this is how we would divide the fluid quality but you know there's some conditions in there I think he said turbidity I mean we don't have to Beto be in here but if someone wants to use river water which we've had questions on river source water that might have some silt all right and otherwise be fine with you know hardness and total dissolved solids and alike you know that might not be so good because that turbidity can either be abrasive or be end up as sediment somewhere right so there's probably a long list of there's also different types of corrosion right so we just listed probably the most two of the most primary with perhaps to talk to you but I think folks in the forum could probably agree that there's a lot of different types of corrosion so anyway that's just more commentary and how we define food quality all right so we're going to go through through each of these particular definitions of fluid quality one at a time we'll start with corrosion we'll get into lime scale we'll get into chemicals we'll get an antifreeze and you know Bob if we go beyond 60 minutes we haven't gone too far through this and people are still on perhaps we extend it and if this is a really good format for folks to learn from April is available for us to do like a series - if that's what week so we'll play that one by ear as we go through the hour yeah we'll see how many questions and hands go up and working on a 10 e point now you can start asking the questions - if the slides that we talked about if you've got something to add there a question about that all the time so we have another poll question that will come up number two what he's going to throw that in it's concerning corrosion okay and so mm-hmm the poll question is in your experience which corrosion issue has been most problematic oxidation corrosion lvanych corrosion iron ore sulfur bacteria induced corrosion or microbial I guess you can say erosion corrosion or I'm not sure so in your experience we saw corrosion is a pretty big answer in terms of occurrences of problems out there and your experience where would you rate these particular types of corrosion in terms of their being most problematic so let's give two more seconds and then we can close it and post the results that's that's interesting as well oxidation corrosion by far the number one galvanic corrosion I think we all hear about galvanic corrosion it's number well number three I'm not sure isn't surprising right because the effects what type of corrosion what's what sometimes confusing if you look at the effects of what was basically corrosion resulting from oxidation corrosion versus a corrosion from pH that is basically very very low and that would be called a city corrosion so but everyone kind of knows doctor nation corrosion right so I think as a result scored high so let's close that we're going to discuss the approach in here a little bit and number two ask questions about corrosion that you might have if any so if you want to go on to the next light after would he okay so two of those leading corroded the two leading corrosion answers you gave was as we expected oxidation corrosion in galvanic corrosion and here are two examples of those particular ones they're similar in fact are almost identical in terms of how they go about their electrochemical in in nature and what happens is that an oxidation corrosion let's go down to galvanic corrosion you need to have dissimilar metals to have corrosion and in the case of the T in the bottom you have a brass or bronze t but has a steel pipe screw it into it so direct metal on metal contact of dissimilar metals and combined with water that is conductive you can see the effects and that's usually the telltale sign of a galvanic corrosion you see that kind of that oxide and we've seen that on job that we've gone out that buildup of oxide on the outside as its as its corroded it looks like it's quoted from the outside but it's definitely coated on the inside as well now on the left hand side that's not different metals that's one metal that got cut in half and we can see this is oxidation corrosion basically oxygen has created cells in na and they in the same metal dissimilar cells by different concentrations that oxygen located adjacent to one another and so as a result we see the effects of oxidation corrosion even though it's one type of metal told you and the key to that Gov galvanic ocean is you've got to have an electrolyte in there so the fluid is becoming the electrolyte the high TDS it's going to get to fluid is what really enhances their croud and it's just like the battery because yes it on the bad or you take the electrolyte outlet and then cells in the battery the current goes away so that one environment sometimes that can be confused as definitely pipe or it wasn't tightened properly or is too big properly but usually when you see the green and you see the barnacled stuff like that and if you scrape that you would see it's actually eating away at the pipe it's not just a deposit from a drip or a leak I'm so it's actually starting up you know go against the go after those nails in that system there are some so let's run another poll question and then we'll ask questions concerning the issue of corrosion so we're going to ask a poll question it is addressing this type of corrosion that you just saw and that was oxidation corrosion and galvanic corrosion the two reading Trojans as you guys answered so the question is going to come up here it is up there if you could only control one corrosion factor which would you choose okay now we're forcing that they have just one choice here even though you might otherwise put a couple of choices in there just to see where people rank the importance of certain water chemistry aspects as it relates to corrosion so so you could add you think pH or the concentration of the zone oxygen or the value of the total dissolved solids alkalinity or contaminants in the water such as sulfates nitrates chlorides so in your experience which one do you would you choose as if you had to control one in order to keep corrosion under control so let's go ahead and keep that open for another second or two okay all right so does all the oxygens almost 8% pH is 34% total dissolved solids is 10% alkalinity very low and then contaminants is 10% so I think probably that dissolved oxygen doesn't surprise us the answer I think everyone understands the role of oxygen in corrosion just look at your brakes on your car right sometimes with disc brakes and in seawater and your brake set and you haven't used your card awhile right they rest up a pH a high pH so let's close this up and let's talk about pull up the students takes this line okay so this is an interesting graph that explains the role of dissolved oxygen in water and the fluids conductivity the two work together and their interact in terms of their combination effect on whether or not you have a chance for corrosion in your system so along the bottom axis you see dissolved oxygen concentration this is in part four meter or parts per million which is the same as milligrams per liter and so that's along the x axis along the y axis you see total dissolved solids in parts per million and what this is really saying is that you can control corrosion largely for most metals by either a limiting the amount of dissolved oxygen in your system or be reducing your total dissolved content okay so as an example if you look along the y axis a total dissolved content you see you see a blue line at 64 parts per million all right and then if you look at the curve graph you can see as it goes off left to right on the far right side you can see anything if you have the total dissolved solids or non conductive water if you say of 40 parts per million then it doesn't make any difference how much oxygen you have dissolved in your system because there is no conductivity in the water very little and we like to explain corrosion is kind of like in analogy terms like your car battery all right in order for you to start your car which is creating work you have to have either you have to have a a strong battery and B but battery cables alright if you have a weak battery you can't start your car if you have battery cables that don't conduct electricity very well you can't start car so the battery is similar to dissolved oxygen the oxygen is kind of the catalyst or the potential in your water to create corrosion and the total dissolved solids which measured is a measure of conductivity is your battery cables eliminating one or the the other or preferably minimizing both will largely protect the system from corrosion with one exception we'll talk about a little bit later as relates to pH the role of pH comes into play in certain metals as an example aluminum one of the primary factors of aluminum corrosion potential is pH levels and so aluminum is especially sensitive as all the metals amongst all the metals in a hydronic system for corrosion if pH gets out of a range that is comfortable in and each metal has a comfort range in the case of aluminum Bob I think and Calvin we've seen mostly at six point five to eight point five is kind of the Sassi range if you will if you have a pH even if you have no dissolved oxygen in your system and your pH rises above eight point five it will cause the aluminum to begin the protective layer on the aluminum that's been created to break down and then start corroding so Bloom's especially sensitive to pH outside of that pH is more of an indicator that things are are okay we'll get into that a little bit as long as they in a range that is happy with metals and typically that range is about eight pH most metals with a pH of 8 whether it's aluminum or copper or stainless steel or iron are going to be happy unless something else gets out of hand in the system such as a lot of oxygen dissolved or conductivity so I talked late probably too much on that I wanted to explain this somewhat complicated factor of corrosion how's everybody doing out this is questions or comments or if we're going too fast or you need something that explained that I mean they'll let us know talk to us a little bit more we don't want to go through something too fast for example about you know big questions just came in and I don't know if he has a mic but he said how how can you measure dissolved solids dissolved oxygen and it's a good question because typically a measuring dissolved oxygen is going to require some pretty pretty heady instrumentation right however the ability to measure total dissolved solids is pretty easy because it's proportional to the conductivity in the water so very easily you can take a conductivity measurement converted the total dissolved solids and you can know whether or not waters conduct over that like dissolved oxygen is a little bit more of a complicated matter most people don't measure resolve I think you have to go to a lab or something like right okay it's a question all right okay a question or comment what we're gonna do that one here this one came from Bob Kessinger he said we currently use firm access one protecting with estimation of concentration does this compete with or complement collect these water treatment cart a concern that we are that we can't know the fluid quality with their current methods versus potential ongoing water quality check potential using the collected cart the car treated water helps keep valves from sticking or grading it's a good question and it's resulted it involves total dissolved solids we see on the graph here so is a collected cart that's being referred to as a product demineralize ER clappy offers it in the marketplace there's a number of other folks that have demineralized I'll name a couple of watch water as an example we have axiom all good companies that offer this type of product and basically that the mineralize ER takes water that is has dissolved solids or minerals in solution and therefore is conductive and makes the water uncuff and so the answers to that question is yes the use of chemicals is very compatible to demineralized water in fact most chemical manufacturers are shy a nut shy but I would say they don't like to mix pour chemicals with water that has large quantities of any type of dissolved minerals especially minerals such as nitrates and chlorides and stuff that can cause see the chemical to come out of solution and form that sludge that we talked about in the earlier slide so absolutely yes the mineralized water is is very compatible with any type of conditioner out there and I read an interesting German study here recently they look at water two different ways they're fluid whatever it might be and they say the water outside the system can be dealt with before you put in run if you like the clapping you mineralize there and fix the water before you put it in there or once a dinner system they look at a chemical as another option and then you can fix water that you put in that wasn't inspect I put in you know the conditioner chemical the oxygen scavengers the poppers and stuff like that so where the opinion that you should start with a good quality Walker and then if you feel that you do need additional protection certainly the glycol is you tomorrow at two then you could go to some chemicals just know that you know with the chemicals you've got to maintain them and keep working on and you've got a chemical romance that you got to deal with her emptying that romance basically so water outside the system water inside the system the key is known you know when you've got problematic water and then we're here to help you fix that so how can I miss something when this slide got put in we thought it was sourced from a water quality standard in Europe such as Germany and late last night I was doing some reading and I uncovered the same graph used in axioms literature good education literature and so if it was axioms well thank you er I think you guys did a good job with explaining this we've got some other questions a lot of questions coming in that are typed in here though okay no first one was what is your experience with an electronic scale Buster in a closed system that was Herman Vincent monocle experience with that well I know they're out there and you know there's a lot of controversy around those whether you're putting magnet on your pipe on the couple slices or wrap them wires from plugging in the wall you know I'm not an expert on that I mean obviously the people out of remote knows I'm telling them or show an example they look what it did to this dish you know what I understand about those they don't you know you can't take the minerals out of water where would they go it's the closed loop system they're not coming through the wall the pipe so as I understand that they can keep minerals in the suspension so that they don't pull it off it don't you know scale off the components in the system but again I'm certainly not an expert on that technology but I know it's out there the people but it's pretty heavily couple companies as an option to fixing bad water especially climbs problems that either domestic or boiler systems there might be somebody on the phone that's part of that business - and add to say we haven't seen any studies third-party studies that would indicate a magnetic type of approach for scale removal or skip prevention is is effective now that's what the caveat is that we haven't seen anything perhaps there is them out there and anyone that knows of it on the home you can send it to us because it was from time to time they do get that question about that type of way of fixing whatever getting a scale for fixing scale we may have we don't have a good answer for that right now anybody has anything they can chime in and be great now that being said there are electronic an old route that you know but they're said that what their indirect tanks I know you can buy those in the market where if you've got a job where water is the domestic water system they have electronic I know if that's what you're referring to the electronic Anto brought that deal with that that don't get consumed so we're trying to find out more about that let's see we've got a couple more typing questions first one is that the type of dissolved solid matter what are the main types to check for and that came from Kyle Manske maybe I maybe I can grab that one does the type of dissolved solids matter when we refer to when the industry refers to total dissolved solids they're referring to the content of minerals that have dissolved by water have gone into solution thereby creating ions both cations and anions positive and negative anions and this is what gives water its conductive properties now to the extent that the question is about conductivity the answer is all dissolved minerals will create conductivity whether it's calcium or bicarbonate or chloride sodium-potassium they all will create electrically conductive water and thus make the water capable of completing the battery cell effect that is the basis of corrosion now are all the same from a total standpoint I told you about electrical but from a scaling standpoint they are they are not all the same and we're in a few slides we're going to get the scaling and explain that and what are those issues concerning scaling yes now the tds meter that we offer it's going to read out it won't break it out and say well you've got so many parts of this and some of it you'd have to send it in for a pretty thorough analysis break out exactly what's in that TDS numbers you got a high TDS numbers say well can I just you know fix chlorides or can I just take the salt or whatever he has to send that off the sample but what we want to do is get at all those tears specifically what it is we just want to get that number going up that it meets the boilers fact that it's you know not going to affect boilers the pumps the components that we manufacture themselves so should we keep going here or another question or would you think well you know we have more questions come in Pete the heat as to what is the ideal pH range to start with the pH that to start with and turns us starting up the system okay the pH the ideal pH to start with if you read and read the manufacturer's literature it depends on the type of metals used in the system but a range of seven point five to eight you see cited quite a bit because in order to minimize corrosion water is ideally slightly should be slightly basic north of seven and so seven point five to eight now most systems on their own even if they start higher high of 8 or even low of eight will tend to be tend to stabilize so if they start at six by what happens in terms of chemical reactions in the system is they'll start migrating up a number that you'll see in literature would be a number of a 12-8 to commonly cited that hydronic heating systems on their own will tend to migrate towards eight okay so if you look at the German water quality standard they cite 8.2 in other literature now our empirical evidence of testing here at Coletti what happens to pH I think even recently we tested a system that the pH once the demineralized water was put in the system and it started off with a low pH migrated up over the course of time that right Kevin yeah yes stabilized tend to stabilize I have an example of the system that was installed 16 months ago and happens to be my personal hydraulic system but it's about I have about 2,000 feet of oxygen barrier pecs and just a standard a couple of cast-iron pumps I used city water that we measured at 358 parts per million which is 21 grains which is going to be higher than a typical boiler spec and the pH was 8 so that was my city water supply and when we filled the system with the collected demineralize err coming out of the demineralize er the ppm was really low it was just in the single digits and the pH was a little bit low at 6 so since then the pH stabilized in fact the pH stabilized right away within a day or two it went to seven and and continually stayed right around 7 to 7 7.5 over the time so it did stabilize and the PPM creeped up as we would expect and we just tested it last night after 16 months and the ppm is stabilized right around 50 which is about 3 grains so that's over a year and that's just just pure demineralized water put in a very typical common system so the pH seems to seek you know mother nature's balance in this system so there's no chemicals in it at all and it's been a pretty good experiment for us and that's good we'll get to glycol that if else in your assistance there's normal stuff like that the pH is going to be different when we get to that so hang in there we'll talk about the effect of pH and glycol so you another question sure bill gable I'll also ask what about using our old water okay very good question what about using our well our old water well there are various methods available to the Installer or the engineer to take out the dissolved minerals or what's referred to as deionized the water that's the term deionized the water and there's really three methods that one could use and one is ro that removes to a large degree dissolved minerals distilled water so you can use water that has go to their store and buy water other the jug that has been distilled and then you can also thirdly take out the minerals by way of mixed bed media through ion exchange which is the process cited by myself concerning our cart and axioms and a number of others now in the North American marketplace they all produce very low conductive water our role might be five parts per million coming out of a typical RO distilled a little bit pure yet point five parts per million and demineralized water pretty close to zero is that it's probably the one that's going to be the taken out the most however all of those would be fine because as we show on this chart anything south of 40 parts per million is going to substantially eliminate any chance for corrosion even if you do have oxygen ingress okay so the question then becomes cost how much cost per gallon does it take to use any one of those methods and whether you rent it or buy it something that does that it becomes the math exercise that the contractor has to take into consideration but it's a very good question but it's one we get off and all three methods produce deionized water just that slightly different concentration levels but they're all perfectly fine for corrosion prevention and arel typically if you're talking like a residential says aroma you could take all a to get it down or what old water net little hey Orvil open and it might use three to five gallons to do it so there's quite a bit of wastewater that goes down the drain as it squeezes through that time I permeable membrane so it's not fast and it's going to be expensive and it might you know nothing realistic if you need hundreds of gallons for example to fill your systems and the same thing with you know distilled water true distilled water is made by boiling the water collecting the condensate on the stainless steel thing and drip drip it in the bottle so as you can imagine that's pretty slow and expensive now another I had exchanges water software we're going to get to that too because that is a resin media beds with anion exchange but there's there's something to know about that what you're going to get to yeah next year so yeah let's do one more actually we have a question from Mike Levesque and I'm gonna put 20 questions yeah I got a question if Mike live so I'm like hopefully your first easy goalie so you are on Union Bank okay can you hear me okay so the question I have is it seems like we have some fixes for total dissolved solids and I didn't know if the fix for dissolved oxygen would be you know a good Collette the air separator that's a good question okay so looking at this chart in advance for the question the if you have a high level of oxygen dissolved oxygen concentration and your system before you start up let's say alright let's say it's off the charts hi all right what happens through the process of us putting a high-performance separator properly placed is that those that water is going to either undergo a pressure reduction which will bring it out of solution in the form of non dissolved air or the temperature will be heated up such as coming off the boiler creating micro bubbles and as a result air separators scrub the water of dissolved oxygen this way and through the repeated cycles of water going through the process getting foils coming out or it could be even a heat pump quite frankly you do scrub the water and your dissolved oxygen starts to migrate down now even at that until you heat the water substantially the dissolved oxygen content is probably some we're going to be north of 0.10 as you see in the chart here all right but what happens with dissolved oxygen that's not read from a system is that process of oxygen coming in contact with metals in the system creates a natural call it healthy corrosion on the surface of all the metals in the case of in the case of iron or steel it would be magnetite or or chemo type packet item we'll get into that later is the preferred method you get aluminum oxide you get cupric oxide on copper so those all become and those consume the dissolved oxygen so just by nature of the system operating oxygen starts to deplete in the system then it becomes a question once it's depleted largely is does your air separation performance and your pressure management in this system is that sufficient enough to be at a level greater than any rate of ingress and I think Kevin you talked about yours is a non oxygen barrier Peck system at your home but there's many places that you can get oxygen in breast especially with the increased use of polymers in our piping these days right you got got high-density polyethylene and geothermal loops you have PPR you have pecs and the like good question high-performing coal the same type air separator think is the de facto state of the art in the industry today I think Bob would you concur yes you got ours and you got a number of other good brands out there a coalescing that there's a good job getting that oxygen level down just make sure they work that's key to that sometimes on some of it to that room people now I spend all the be on a high performance you know air separator than their points they're not working we had I know later in the pictures and I know some pictures of some that talk now I mean you got it in there but it's not doing its job but the other thing is that you know oxygen can get into a system and even on barrier texting oxygen gets through that at a low weight but over a period of time and maybe five or ten years especially on a higher temperature systems you still have oxygen getting through the wall that tubing so it needs to be again the numbers that you look at when we should show you our tester here will indicate if that's happening if a lot of oxygen in the system it's going to show up in a number you say well I either got to you know put an oxygen scavenger in there to treat that or keep it out of there it's coming into an airbender pumps you or something hey Bobby inaudi speaking the other want to consider on this is you know control leakage now because for every gallon of water that exit a gallon of water has to come back in and there's a good chance that that water coming in is going to be oxygen and air saturated so this can actually depending on how tight your system is this can be a very significant factor in the continuing injection of oxygen into the system that can be consumed on a big commercial job where there's a lot of leaking fields or air vents that's a good point a lot of questions basically related to the resin and you know are that product so I don't know if we want to address those no more on this again we want we don't want to ignore anybody here but if we'll move on to another topic and at the end we'll open it up again if we have some time if it has to go in the next month we'll certainly do that but we had a few that we want to get to just to trigger all the points that we want to get today but you know if we have to come back to a question I think Bob we get to the resin as Mike mentioned in about six or seven slides so I think we'll get there good yeah okay don't lower the hand okay okay all right lime scaling this is everybody knows what the white deposit you see on the inside outside of pipe so this is the scale of gives you an idea of the scale thickness and how it analyzes your heat transfer and there on the side you can see what one millimeters and that little day planner calculator that Mark shown you there so it doesn't take much and it doesn't take long to get that kind of dough if you're putting water and that's you know has a high hardness lime scale in it so if you're selling your customer hi if this was your equipment in your process water in there you can see what kind of penalty you're taking that's going to show up in operating cost of that equipment and certainly longevity of it if you start putting hot spots on that heat exchange surface that's where you burn through that's where you get pounds with you know pinholes and boilers failing so anything else than that mark I sound like it right that's a pretty good grip of that because they rate it I'm scaling everybody see I mean if you're a farmer you drain water if you use you've certainly steamed lawns go and understand what that does to your system into performance in the noise it makes anything else oh yeah this one is uh this should be well known to everybody else just in the next night can we jump back slide yes so you know you with that one millimeter the really not a lot of lime scale buildup I'm you know ten percent that's less as Bobby said less he going in to the building you know more losses and the other thing to consider is if this Energy's not going into the building typically you're gonna see an elevated stack temperature impossible problems there as well and you know this is during normal operation where there's no failure of the boils that we've done to the next slide you know two great pictures showing a condensing in the non condensing boiler and both of these you can see have a very major lime scale issue the non condensing boiler on the right hand side that actually my hand in the picture very large buildup it's almost like a grand in there and that material will significantly reduce the heat transfer and without when there the boiler crack because of thermal stresses on the the left hand side the condensing boiler a little bit different you know and there you'll notice a lot of it's just built up and is sitting on that plate the boiler itself because of expansion contraction as it built up it was flaking off and here the the problem was a flow condition all of that materials to chop the flow forms off now Mike are we getting any limescale questions coming in yet Oh awesome Mike for a second he'll be back but I mean that's more than foot until me on the right hand picture but you can see where it flakes off the the water tubes in that boy they're like Jody says at that boiler heats up in the burner comes on that metal expands and it releases that that falls down to the pump that step ahead plate on that boiler shorty we did have a question about about the resin in our system is the resin balance that will extract all common minerals found and domestic you know tality water source I think that's about three slides from right now so if we want to jump to the next one a poll question which is perfect for us I think the questions that are coming in here so yeah let's go ahead and run this poll questions run this poll question one choice of how you would so this is another one I only have one choice if your water was hard so we have the choice now putting hard water into your system how would you limit its scaling capability would you a use a chemical to sequester the hardness would you choose to soften the water typically would you decide to remove the dissolved minerals or which you control the pH from drifting high or would you minimize the heat exchangers surface temperature now all of those do reduce scaling but which one would you choose some are more effective than others yeah it was the most go ahead I can answer that it's a good response there okay okay so we have interesting so removing the dissolved minerals okay number one softening the water number two chemical sequester or three and I think probably guys this this is something we probably lands right okay so removing the dissolved minerals would be the first choice okay so let's then let that go to a water softener work so this is there a question okay let's go talk about this then we'll open you up again okay well the second choice was water softening which uses typically ion exchange technology basically the resin is a positive charge resin that removes positive charge with sodium on the beads and and so it removes minerals in solution specifically calcium and magnesium knows that contribute to lime scaling but what happens is that as the magnesium and calcium gets captured into a very small degree iron they get captured but in exchange sodium gets kicked off and ends up going into your water so the sodium content increases inside your water that's why when you taste water to a water softener and that sodium taste to it some people will bypass like this installation and use an unsub boots off from water for drinking water back to the topic though now you have a depending on ahora how the water you have water that now has a high concentration of of sodium okay so when you heat it as a result sodium hydroxide can form and it's a it's also related to the carbon dioxide coming out at solution in the system forming sodium hydroxide okay resulting in a pH to rise in fact you can rise above 10 and that might not be a problem for many systems however if your system has aluminum aluminum doesn't have liked to have typically a pH anything higher than eight point five to that earlier point so the bottom line here is that if you have aluminum in your system it could be a fan coil a lot of fan coils will have their coils made out of aluminum in other parts or air handler or boiler or some lumen boilers right yeah all right that's especially problematic especially if your water in your system has chlorides now we're finding more and more well water tested to have what chlorides or because quite frankly when you do the back backwash on your water softener you're basically dumping chlorides out to perhaps your septic system right neck leads down into your into your aquifer so bottom line is be careful with water softening all right when you are looking to make the water from from scaling it does do a great job forbidding water from scaling back to prevent scaling to very large degree if not completely eliminate sand but you got the issue of this potential corrosion issue some people say is that the lesser of two evils if you've got water that the hardness is off the scale many places do in the US now you know are you better to do this and use the software softened water to put in there than putting water that might be you know 100 grains hard or something like that well just know that you're substituting one you know lesser problem for skill and other columns so there's a better way to do it that's very similar to what a water softener is and you eliminate all that potential problem the other thing you'll find with water softener is you know if you use it on domestic water that's when you start seeing those green or blue stains around the drains and your sinks and they're on the bubble aerators uh scoffs that's because of that you know that soft water is causing that reaction so you can cause other problems so let's is there anything else question mark key problem no I think it's a good point it was a good question so so softening water does is a good effective way looming yeah so there's two questions about how do you eliminate lime scale buildup especially in indirect heaters there was also comment by Richard graves above Mexican vdi 2035 which states based on European agency regulations it's illegal to use regular domestic water in the heating system yeah thanks Richard heat moisture moves out from Germany he mentioned that the German standard which that BDI is actually the German equivalent of a three at the membership of ha engineers over there they put together it really does a comprehensive water standard and they in effect we've got it in their slide she could get that part we're trying to run them long here but we did post that up and thanks for reminding us on that so didn't thought so I'm sorry okay I don't know there's so question about you know ion exchange doesn't it just switch the hard water ions for the sodium it's a water software's correct so that's a water softener right that's bad enough that's what we just just talked about ion exchange but it's only exchanging positively charged ions any negatively charged ions in your well water such as chloride sulfate phosphate carbonates bicarbonate bulls will all pass straight through so if you get chloride in your groundwater and you go run it through a water softener and the chloride is going to go right into your water right into your system yeah and if you got stainless steel that's also a big issue yeah Sheamus still does not like chlorides and somebody backing up somebody said an indirect water heater now you might want to soften the water going in the water side the domestic water stuff in that indirect years where you don't fill that up with scale just know again if you're using the stainless steel indirect tank that you know you're that level of those client and the sodium is going off in that now and the other thing was just thinking about that a lot here but let's uh well I think that it got a couple of questions that was yes sir with this slide right here because questions are concerning getting Riddick minerals in solution other than the hard minerals so here we have a photograph does anyone want to talk about this particular side from Michigan and uh do you mineralize her yeah and I'm not a hundred here it looks like he's going through our demineralize er and then I don't know why he's going through those little ptosis five um total we're assuming that he's trying to measure how much water he's then going to our flush and fill car to pump him into a system where we're thinking maybe Splenda glycol worse but and you know so many gallons of water and with so many gallons of glycol behind it because it looks like he's got one two one two many steps here to get water from the ionizer into the system but I mean that's what he's doing is he's running all the water that's going into that system through the coffee demineralized there so if he's stripping out positive and negatives he's taking that water down to a pretty pure state by going through the mineralized at first and then obviously pumping again in this system here so if you've got on this is what I was gonna say if you've got our product that we did on the phone we've got a really good graphic as well as an explanation of difference between salt and water and demineralized water with those little bubbles and stuff if some of you folks had looked at that if certainly review that after this because you know you can't cover everything in this time we have here but that does really do a good job of explaining the the big difference between soft and water and demineralized well some questions are coming in relative to how do I get rid of minerals other than calcium and magnesium that are problematic and the answer to that is what you're looking at here is the demineralize ER that's why these guys went to this pain of having a digital I sure they could take site water which is typically pretty much almost free right and they can treat it and regardless of what minerals are in solution from your site water the demon riser is going to remove it through ion exchange so unlike a water softener which only gets rid of largely calcium and magnesium in exchange for sodium a demineralize ER its rid of all dissolved minerals in solution including chlorides sulfates phosphates iron calcium but although all of those problematic ones get an exchange produces water and that your point Bob we explain that more fully in a in the hydronic number 18 in terms of the water chemistry so he is the this contractors producing good water from bad water storing in these totes and then pumping it into the system looks like you're making a pre-mixed glycol or something yeah now the other side of that is when you do that with a demineralize ER you can no longer do the sodium exchange and wash it out it has to be washed out with a lie or real caustic solution so it's not something that you can regenerate this type of resin bed on the job you'll have to you know replace the resin and they're basically but that's because it's scrubbing both sides the cations out that you can't or won't do with a softer so all right okay I'm gonna do another slide sure yeah we have two more here but that's that's me hi in fact that's at that Kevin this is booth we just talked about earlier out of cabinets house where we were put it in what last October I guess we filled that system for the first time so example how you would pipe it in with a double valve there we do this level one cycle together so and that's the bag that you replace once it's been consumed the resins there I'm not over right so on here ah here's the bubble in that was in the slide so there's market parking this is a really good graphic of the difference between your your bad wall are on the very left there with all pot the different colors the positive and negatives and the bubble there and you can see after the soften water we've taken some of them out see by the colors that we've taken it up but we've left an awful lot behind in that bubble and then on the very far right taking both the positive and negative the cations and anions out and ended up with pretty much for water I mean that's it in a nutshell the difference between the softening and demineralizing the water anything I had to them other questions or anything on that Mike no Luke landry he's hand up for a while here sorry about that Luke if you're ready I can I can put you on live here so come on talk to us okay look II should be live demineralized water that's already in the system or you have to use new water that you're putting in yeah and we show that nitronic how you can use it like a bypass filter and and do that just be aware that you can't do it with hot water what I'm gonna 140 temperature because you'll start reducing the effectiveness of the resin so you'd have to do that if it's a boiler system you'd have to do it when the system's cold or off or not firing up so and also you know you'd have to make sure that you know a portion of it goes through there a portion of the bypass it couldn't in this example here we couldn't do an inch of the core people right through that and the meter on the top of the hydrofoil out there has a TDS meter on I'll tell you when your residents being consumed a lot of time to replenish the bag so yeah and certainly on a big you know it so you got a commercial building you don't want to bring that hope they'll be down that water and started all over you don't have to bleed that system you could spend a lot of time there so you would just run this in the bypass filter and this valve that we're showing could do that where you can Lao you know you can see the big valve in the center you could slow that flow down and let it go down through the filter and back into the system function and adjust the and this is just this eval that we offered there's other valves like that out there I called a three three purpose valve where that's the flow going through and that's where you can regulate those they're not of it and then over here on the top right here's where the meters that you would watch the you know the tds level the fluid going going into the system so yeah that's a good question I probably would do is I would also put up some sort of pre-filter on there there is a very fine mesh screen um up in the bottom to make sure that the resin stays inside it in case the bags rip open I forget maybe mark mark or Kevin knows the how fine that meshes with the the particle is but I probably preen pre-filter just to make sure it doesn't trap numbers out of the system yeah that's something to watch for you you want to put fairly clean water into the demon demineralize err you don't want a bunch of particulates go in the entrance in the bottom so it looks like I mean we'll keep going here I know we're at over the time weather actually so it will watch the count of people on you or still got a lot of people on so a little bit more because we didn't get but two-thirds of the way through this so if you want to have you in their grade and then we'll consider after we end here if we should do this again next north and pick up where we're going to keep it so before we do that can i comment on luke so because we do get that question me installers will want to in order to purge the air all right if you're limited by the flow rate limitation of sending water through the divisor and directly into your system there is a what is it six gallons from editors I think there's also push through the right or it's higher for the larger okay for the larger unit but people like this really purge the air ahead of the water get it completely rid of air so given that that's the perfect time to as Luke asked use kind of that approach where you just basically create a differential and just kind of keep scrubbing the water and there's no problem with sending water repeatedly through aided mineralize er it doesn't have to be at one pass right it's just going to keep scrubbing and scrubbing and scrubbing until you measure that the TDS or the conductivity is to where you want yeah okay anything else my cursor you can move on here Oh chemical add tips weather poll question yeah we're into this half way I think we're going to take this to a two-part here because yeah so what do you want to run this poll course if you can hear us on the chemical additives okay so I'll read it in your experience what is most important to ensure ongoing chemical performance so I'm going meaning that the chemicals are doing their job on an ongoing basis what do you consider to be things most important check the pH or TDS routinely disregard the second answer because that it's just repeated I think so and then or do you make sure to check for sludge or debris nation regularly as an indicator if things are funky boards chemicals or you might have the attitude that chemicals don't require maintaining these days just dump it and you're good to go or and I say these days it could be because of the quality of the chemical or I don't use chemical additives so you have four options here so give it a thought and again for kind of forcing you to choose one just to see what you prioritize the first alright this is good we can kind of see in the man there you go okay seventy percent check pH or TDS yeah you're right that's a good answer if you had the top two lines come up to what 70% there so that's and that's certainly the easiest thing to do I mean how would you check for sludge and well she opens from the low point of the system to see if it's settling down there so it wasn't the meter that we every that you can get can check the water take a sample really anywhere out of the system and see where you're at there's a Baba a point about checking TDS though right if it's referred to referring to also tds um many chemicals will actually they're actually mineral based and so when you put them in your system if you measure the conduct of your system before putting the minerals in let's call it 200 parts per million tds and then you put a inhibitor of some sort or some type of chemical what happens it changes the conductivity so it jumps because chemicals unless they're completely organic base which they usually are not will raise the TDS readings okay so it's important that that be known so that that becomes your base so that has i'm going you check ph and tds against the known base and i think what you'll find from the chemical people once you start using their chemicals in there they want you to maintain that their test or test kit though you know use the big quantities of it that's how can sample once a year once every two years and kind of keep an eye on it but if you use their test kit it's going to tell you specifically when there's a boost that might be required for that chemical instead of just a generic reading of the water and here are just some examples of how you could add chemicals into a system you know pot feeder you could get to the top of that feeder on the left comes off and you could dump your mixture in there and then you know pulled in the system this came from a yuki UK website would open systems over there i said she can just open a rate or how i can dump it in if you're up high enough or certainly with a aerosol can that we can eject a lot of the chemical companies are making it easy for you guys it's inject it in by just giving you a can that's got a little you know hose connection out that you can just screw on the mail garden hose thread and pull the trigger in it it squirts both the cleaner as well as the inhibitor chemical is yeah Luke are you still there we got luke back yeah yeah I thought that you had sent in a question and if you wanted to have that live here yeah I just wanted to know if we're using chemical inhibitors like for example multi-system and we use hydro fill the resin in the actual fill remove the corrosion inhibitors yeah yeah it's gonna pull out the good stuff that you're putting in there which is probably expensive so you wanna you know fix your water clean up your water boost it before you start putting your chemicals in otherwise if you do run it through the mineral eyes or you're pulling those chemical down put them in the resin bead and and putting good money after bad I guess yeah and that's a really good point because if you if you choose the method of filling your system conditioning it and then using the demineralize ER to take the the conductivity down and your hardness out you're pulling off your inhibitors out good stuff because they've gone in a solution when they've ionized you know now the resin is gonna basically after it and that goes back to that German now say I read where they said you know fix the water on the outside before you put it in watch your system is going to have chemicals for additional protection or freeze protection or whatever after you put the good water it's time to consider that so yeah all right so we got here so uh again with the chemicals now we're talking about cleaning agents I mean most of the what these cleaning agents ours are soaps or detergents that go in there and they break up any oil and grease and he saw it or flux anything that might be in there and then you purge that out you wash all the bad stuff out and then you put in your good water and then look at your water and see if it needs to be adjusted or boosted and pH you know you're up or down depending on what might need where the opinion if you've got a good clean system whether it's a new system or an old system that just put in good water in there demineralized water should be the final step now some people choose to go a little bit further and put a conditioner that might have a film provider might have some other stuff they think they've got a loose system as far as some o2 getting in or something yeah they want that extra level protection that's what we feel you can provide with a with a chemical additive to it so but again now you've got to you've got to maintain that with their test kit to know that when you need to go back and boost that that chemical that you put in there with a boost kit because you've used up you've consumed the scavengers or the buffers that are in there so anything well I think it's a good point I guess a couple of clerk and that clarification is just going to emphasize some points back on the cleaning agents we've found when someone has cleaned their system and but didn't completely get rid of the cleaning agents from the system before they filled it and conditioned it with inhibitors the inhibitors will react with the cleaning agents in some cases especially from if they're from different companies and they will cause the inhibitor to end up degrading or maybe the molding or something like that it was so filthy foaming or something like that until that's usually a tale of needing to get the cleaning agents out of there right yeah so that's very important then the conditioners and hibbett errs have a chance to work as properly if they're choosing chosen to to to be used okay now before we leave this slider about adjust pH up or down you know that I didn't exam where as we mentioned if you have aluminum in your system and you have soft and water well your you could have your pH start to drive or drive up above where aluminum doesn't like to live and so you might want to have a pH reducer okay and then the buffer is basically adding alkaline to it to make sure the pH doesn't change very much and basically kind of people tell us they lock it in right that's what okay open and icers do they're your buffers of pH and Oh to scavengers we talked about that depending on the type of OT we're over the opinion you really shouldn't be using older to be scavengers because you should be doing air separation and getting rid of the action by the way if that means rather than put a scavenger in there that could end up precipitating creating that sludge that we talked about really hot but perhaps some when the chemical manufacturers could bit different status that perhaps their product and consumed for I think hmm some providers that people don't know what they are they're a corrosion inhibitor right is that what would be called but they create a barrier of electrical conductivity between the fluid and the metal by establishing a one or two middle thick call it I won't say oily Zorba's but basically an inhalation surface right but they have to be properly dosed because if you if you under dose what have you done if you under dose and you don't thoroughly coat your system of the inhibitor and you leave some spots that didn't get coated they become call it the sacrificial lamb they're off their equipment to the through the an old rat inside your hot water heater right they're going to receive the full Grossmont potential of the system and remember you just increase the conductivity by putting additives into it so not only have you laid bare some products parts of the system that can corrode you you've also increased the conductivity so where are you going to get problems you're gonna get corrosion in those so under dosing an issue and overdosing is also an issue and I think who is it PD he mentioned VDI tool three four five if we get into that but they say be careful about overdosing if you do choose the chemicals because fluids you can get well you can get microbial film buildup on your and then that becomes a harbor for bacterial growth and that ends up and potentially in bacterial corrosion induced food source a couple of questions on how often to check the pH connection that well I mean I'd certainly check it you know after your first fill up a system within I'd you know maybe that heating season we check it at the end of that heating and then you know maybe start yearly and if it isn't moving around much maybe go out every two years I know with glycol that's important to catch it before it goes too bad because those are attacking things but I mean if it's not moving like Kevin's isn't moving around much I don't know that he has to check that every time you go in the basement anymore like did test you'd been so it just depends if it's moving around if it's moving around I would keep an eye on it and figure out why it's move around and that that problem that's causing it to to make big jumps either up or down something's caused that pH to move and again it could be oxygen getting in there it could be something that was left in the system so we gotta go another ten or fifteen minutes here so I think we should go to said ninety minutes we'll keep going here so there that's the key to you know your Chemical Romance's you got a caller up once along there him all right we've got it's a good another poll question coming up here all right so if you used chemicals what best describes the most important reason why you use chemicals so we've heard some questions about using them but not why you use them so do you use chemicals typically only to fix bad water bad water do you only you always add chemicals whether it's a new install or a retrofit do you add you consider chemicals if only if problems arise and lastly you add chemicals in order to conform to the equipment spec the specs of an equipment manufacturer or equipment manufacturers okay so again we're forcing into letting us know and maybe the rest of the audience know why people choose to use additives so let's go ahead and mmm a lot of participation on this one all right go ahead and let us have it woody let's see there we go okay so we have a 46% that always add chemicals okay they add to conform to equipment manufacturers specs only fix it bad water and ammonia problems arise so I think Bob since we only have ten minutes here let's maybe we can agreed that in April where we have an opening for a webinar topic that we have to decide maybe we do a part two here because we got a lot of questions and we still got a lot of material to go over so maybe we can go back to the poll results that we have that forward I guess the question would be for the people that many people had answered okay right here when the large share answered when needed to conform to equipment manufacturers specs so that I guess the question would be what specs specifically of a manufacturers equipment does the chemical used allow you to conform to I suppose the issue is warranty and long lasting but is there anyone that would be willing to weigh in on this as to why and what conditions or what is it about it we put a manufacturer suspect that the editors will help you conform to anyone raising their hand like pull off the boiler stack yeah I must tell you that we pulled some boiler specs right out of their manuals here and we'll show you what what they're asking you to do here so Jodi might weigh in on this I think you pulled some of these out of different manufacturers I know manual so Jody's still out there joining your unmute if you're out there yeah but see what's what's what you'll notice and this is all the PPM's parts per million and again this is what you're going to read with that TDS meter now we don't let's use the upper left one there for an example in other saying so many parts formula calcium magnesium and stuff the TDS meter isn't going to tell you isn't going to break that down at this time there we go yeah we're just talking for some reason muted really when you look here the thing to remember with these are their boiler specific really doesn't Arthur the equipment in the system but I always like these because it really points out that that softening isn't isn't the solution because everybody will usually list some requirement of water hardness but more and more to particularly out you know if you look at that one that's up in the left-hand corner it's calcium and magnesium in total hardness which look at that and a water softener can address but the chlorides and the sulfates since they carry a negative charge they're not they're not going to be even they're just gonna blow right through this off break it touched and you know you look around there and you look around there and did go next one below has chlorides as well the one to the the right hand side again chlorine concentration not less than 200 ppm another one that typically shows up and Evan I didn't have one on one of these but nitrates as dwell you know chloride sells nitrates they're all all going to attack and particularly a stainless steel boiler so we start to look at the the water treatment and particularly a need for the hydro Phil you know the hydro Phil pretty much addresses everything that's lidded there as a potential water water quality issue from the boiler and there's that pH level that Mark was talking about earlier this Panetta speed 8.5 but the ranges now as you can see pretty tight there that six point six to eight if you go off to the right-hand side the bigger block pH between six point five nine point five now Jodie the poll question resulted in a good chunk of the respond say they use chemicals largely to conform to equipment manufactures specifications so in your experience do you know what chemical that might be what kind of chemical and and what type looking at all these X what would be an example of a specification that it would it would allow you to conform to well I look at those those specifications really it's not about chemical addition it's about deep in the water because you look at the wide range of chemicals particularly either you know I'll use the one in the upper left hand corner you know it's gonna be very difficult to chemically treat to take care of all of those concerns whereas if I do it as a demineralized the water I've wiped all of that clean from the SIL water there are some boilers that ship with as chemical around if you remember when the MZ boilers first came out they were one of the first aluminum boilers that you guys probably saw out there and they would ship a you know a point of that in a ball inhibitor that puts in there and I know most of the aluminum boiler manufacturers now will give you a choice of three brands that they suggest you put in typically home Arthur Noxon sent or brands that they give you an actual product name that they recommend that you use on those aluminum boiler so they're the ones that seem to be most sensitive about you know having a fix in there in addition to the water that you're putting in there so I think that's what we came up with why you're getting this response on the mom probably aluminum weather guys are saying we'll wait a second the manual says to use one of these three products in there so you know particularly looking at either fixing the pH or a film form or to help protect the aluminum and I think that the caveat there is to make sure the water quality is good enough that the inhibitor will actually work properly yes as the chemical guys have actually said themselves if you get higher than typically 25 parts per million of salt based and chlorides it will it will prevent the inhibitors from working correct well let's do this we've got five minutes left and the next slide jumps in the glycol maybe that's a good place to start next month because it is kind of another topic and I know this little glycol users out there so let's I know Mike's got a stack a question about to use the last couple of minutes here and see if there's good input or questions if you're gonna type it in with plenty of those iterations I call questions well maybe Bob you can show the next few slides and then guys that I can see what we're looking to present next April next April oh but no Thursday is really yeah yeah that's what we're going to go with with your neck unemployed college because we know a lot of you especially with the you know in the West and the snow mile people it it's a must there's no option not to have by calling some of these systems so knowing that you know how do I make sure that I got it right that I've got the inhibitors they miss right be my system so I mean here's where we'll start with that poll question I'm going to go into this but I just wanted to cognizing an idea of what our slacks looked like and going into and then what we'd like to do is whatever questions you still have and and if you guys look at this format where guys can ask questions we had three or four today that were able to talk live let us know that because if so we'll continue this will do to get in April and then we'll address glycol which is a very as we know and especially up in Canada and also North the United States is pretty popular for systems we'll get into measurement devices and we'll get into we didn't get into devices that manufacturers have for addressing the problems that can occur from corrosion such as sedimentation everything get into dirt separators wide strainers and really didn't get into air separators into any large degree so those are all things that we can see up for the next one and I think one of our best attended webinars that we've ever done was when we had the glycol we had a fellow from Dell he transferred the vision that did a glycol I think we had like people showed up this so we know that something you find and maybe we need to go into that a little bit more and maybe we'll get a guy call expert a two on board that if there's something specific to the chemical that you can have them with us next month to help out with that so any other questions that we can do it works you know I think that's right well the housekeeping you want to get down to yeah this is what we in get to so let me get down to the couple housekeeping now I guess we've got a little bit this is these are some of those if you guys want to go there I went and found all these which you'll see on your on your slide that will send you as far as you want to look into these standards that are out there and learn a little bit more about what they're doing to these other countries which by the way in some of these countries like Germany that's part of the inspection now you know they're going to put a combustion analyzer on that boiler you put in they're going to inspect for you know piping the way you put it in there and then they're going to they're going to fluid or your water in there so those are probably the challenge coming up today at the VDI standard the two zero three five of Germany and by the way Germany has a boiler market a hydronic market that's two or three times the size of all of North America so there's a lot of obviously thinking behind these water quality standards that we the United States don't yet have in place whether US or Canada but there are two parts to it as Bob mentioned I encourage you to go under website as we show here because you can download the PDF and what would you say probably about a half an hour read between the two pages or something like that and can may be more than a half an hour but it's very good technical information there and it here we go and I see some of the things that we've been talking about there on the writer what they go and every one of these talked about hey this is what you need to know this is what you need to do and you can see over I know how might well you can see that's getting pretty small print there but you see they talk about copper and aluminum and stainless and all that so they've done their homework on this topic and maybe someday that you else will adopt this or a version of this because this is really pretty comprehensive so it's just like you know we don't want overwhelm here either and with information so breed that is you have time and then let me get down to we had a lot of I don't think yeah so we don't have any any housekeeping at the end because we don't have the the excellence go under anything else so with that I guess we'll say thanks everybody thanks for playing the game and participate with us and we'll get to the typed in questions and it sounds like we're going to go with this neck so yeah April sergeant's Duty and Kevin or next month or April bring your questions again or additional questions you have and thank you everybody thanks for supportive coffee