Maintaining High Fluid Quality in Modern Hydronic Systems Part 2

the broadcast is now starting all attendees are in listen-only mode okay welcome everybody to coffee with kalevi I'm Bob hot rod roar going to be your presenter today and I happen to be up in the Iowa City Iowa plumber supply in a borrowed office so hopefully all the technology stays with me here in the phones don't start ringing or I'm going to have to start taking orders for the counter here but thanks everybody for tuning in today and as usual we've got a lot to talk about a lot of good that new information I think will be interesting to you so I'm going to go through it the coffee ID romick's the information I'm going to talk about today a lot of it comes out of the number 18 there that we did on water quality what about a year ago now in 16 we did that you can see some of our back issues a 21 will be hitting the streets here mid-year again so if you aren't getting those go to our website right there and sign up and we'll get you on the mailing list and make sure twice a year when we mail this out that you get one not delivered right to your mailbox and if you want some of the back issues get a hold of us and let us know we do have some of those or my round that we can fill up a binder for you and get you simpler back issues so so where we kind of left off last and what we hope to do is kind of pick up a little bit on the difference and the way that you can treat water I'm going to go over some of the the different tools that we have available that you can get out there to test the water the main things that you want to look for whether you're going to put you know regular fill water from the job site into your jobs or if you want to blend some glycol Zoar if you want to put some conditioners or going to use some cleaners on your systems there's just a couple instruments that you should own that you need to own that you can check the water and get a pretty good idea of where you're starting from and then you need to determine you know what do I want to do I want to clean up my water do I want to buy water going to haul water to the job what do I have to do so we're going to go through the steps that you need to do that and the tools I also want to look at some of the standards that the bet developed in other countries for water quality Germany Switzerland and Austria they actually gone ahead and developed water quality standards and what I really want to get to that we haven't gotten to in previous is the some of the chemicals that are out there what they do do I need to use them at all when do I use them and also glycolic so I understand that a lot of people out there are using glycol new systems and I'm in Iowa and all this week I've been talking a lot of geo people up here and they're using glycol mixes and their geo loop fields also in addition to a glycol and other fluids I want to talk a little bit about the pros and cons to different fluids that are out there and how you test them and how you put them in and how you use them so again and that's a that's a mouthful that we're going to we're going to be having here today the other thing I want to say and I just discovered this this morning as I was researching getting ready for this that this is x to the 7th time that we've talked about water fluid quality and hydraulic systems so if you go back to our archives you can go all the way back to February and 2013 Jeff persons came on as a guest speaker for us and he owns a Geo source one over in Columbus Ohio and he estimates to be a hydrogeologist and he's been on the RPA he's got a textbook out there called um understanding geothermal system and he came and did a great presentation specifically towards you geothermal guys you know what's happening the systems out there what do I look at for water quality what are the key factors when you start doing the loop field and stuff like that so if you want go back and you know listen to that one again then in April 2015 Jim Palin from first Supply Company folks up in the Wisconsin probably know them for supplies and one of the owners of first supply and he also does training our borders and water quality and he has a deep background and boiler and used to work for quantity boiler company years ago so he's worked on big commercial industrial boilers and he did a great presentation for us and he got into it a little bit deeper he's got a little bit more background in that than I do I'm not going to present myself as an expert by any means on water quality but we've had over the years I've got Jeff on here we've had Jim on here we had Kevin O'Connor back in June of 2015 from Dowell Corporation and he did heat transfer fluids he's a senior engineer over there so that was a good webinar that was specifically the glycol and I tried to squeeze him a little bit for some trade secrets but as a his legal department wouldn't let him disclose exactly what goes into their fluids but he did give us some really good information and insight so that's another one to review and then John Seigenthaler came and did another one and when was that March of 2016 when we came out with the idea Ronix issue which siggy helps us put a lot of those together so he did a presentation on water quality for hydraulic systems in in March of 16 that's of course on the ark I've known our fearless leader mark Olson up in Wisconsin there's tuned in today and it's going to be my my lifeline if I need one he did a webinar we called it digging deeper and he actually went into it and then what is pH what does it mean how do you adjust it he went into it a little bit deeper than we have in the past so that one is probably the most in-depth look that we that we took and then of course we tried this in February again which we called fluid quality so we've gone through this material a couple of times I hope it's not too repetitive and it gets boring for you but the reason that is such interest to me is you know I've been involved in this industry for what over thirty years now and I've always had an interest in water and fluid quality but when I went to work for kalapa here about what nine years ago now I guess I kind of renewed my interest and I got deeper and in the research and learning more about it because I started seeing products coming back to us that had you know problems that they had seized up or bound up or plugged up or had pin holes in them and I said all this gets back to water quality again I got to learn more about this so I'm on a quest and I don't know if however be an expert but I'm going to keep learning and keep sharing what I found about it and why it's become more important in this day and age for us is the high efficiency equipment that we're installing nowadays whether it's a high-efficiency pump or high-efficiency mod Conboy ler you know we've got a lot more metals in our systems that we ever had the wall thicknesses are getting thinner and thinner all the time and you cut away some of these Moscow employers and it's a few thousands of an inch of metal that's between that water and the flame side so it just becomes more important that you know what you're putting in these systems because the warranty and the longevity of that piece of equipment is directly related to what you put in there so as we look at water in this bubble I don't know how well it shows up on your screen but it's in our rad Ronix 18 when you get a chance to look at that it basically shows what's in untreated water so this would be the water that's coming out of here well your public water system in the city where you live and within that bubble of water there that you're seeing on the screen you get my little pointer going here you'll see all these different minerals that are in there dissolved minerals and you'll notice that we're trying to show by the different color these minerals are in there some of these will have a positive charge and some of them will have a negative charge so all the different minerals that are in there will either be a cation or anion cation being a positively charged mineral the negatively charged would be an anion and so if we want to take everything that's in this bubble which we do because we don't want any minerals in our boiler system at all because some of them will scale out and cause them you know issues with hot spots and the boilers some of them will clog up the equipment and stuff so ideally we'd like to get everything that's in this bubble stripped out of there and end up with just pure water which is h2o so probably the most common thing that people think of when we say well we got a you know clean up our water get the minerals off as a water softener and so basically what we do with a water softener is there's a resin bed in there and we run this water through there and the resin that's in there has little beads that have a charged edge to them they're kind of little polymer beads they can actually be you can find them in nature it's called zeolite and it's actually where lava rock hot lava hits the salt water forms a little mineral known as zeolite but they now most of it's manufactured they can make it out of polymers and stuff like that and so these little porous beads are going to collect anything that's got the opposite charge all these little brown dots in here when it goes through that resin bed that zeolite resin bed that water softener these are going to be attracted or they're going to be pulled out of the water and they're going to be attracted to the beads inside there and then when those beads get plugged up or get all the minerals attracted to them what we do is we take a brine solution out of the other tank on your water software we put salt in there and make a prime solution and we wash that through this resin bed and what it's going to do is going to exchange the sodium ion which is coming from the brine solution for the hardness ion that's been the track to these beads and then it replenishes the resin bed so you can use it over and over again so the good news is we've taken away a lot of these calcium magnesium type of minerals that are our line scale forming that cause those deposits that you see in the bottom of a water heater when you take it out or you see it in the boiler that's had a lot of water added to it we handle a lot of that but we've left behind some of these other charged items that are in that water sometimes you referred to assault and so we fixed one kind of bad thing that we don't want which is a scaling your nose but now by adding all these other sodium ions in there we've increased the conductivity of the water and when we have high conductivity water that still leads to problems with corrosion problems to aggressive water so I now I need to deal with the rest of the things that were leftover in that bubble so we got a little bit better with softening we fix some things but we kind of made some things worse than that we increase the conductivity of the water by putting those of sodium mines and there during the exchange process so what I really want to get to is this little bubble right over here I want to get 2x h2o is what I'd like to end up with which is pure water there's a number of ways I can do that I can run this water through a reverse osmosis process where we squeeze that water through a semipermeable membrane under high pressure and it's going to strip out everything in there and then that backwash is down the drain I could run it through a distiller which I boil the water turn it into steam collect the condensate drip it off into a container and now I've got pure water or I can run it through a resin bed that's got both positive and negatively charged resin beads in it so it's going to attract everything that's in that bubble so I end up with pure water so which one you want to use what's the better way to go well there is no exact answer to that a lot depends on how bad the water that you're putting into there is when you start out because every one of these has a you know a positive and negative effect to the water and I want to end up with water that's not too expensive to do I want to end up with water that doesn't take you know days to create like our old water have a smaller onew and it can take it all day long get five gallons of water that's not going to be very practical on a jobsite so I'll show you what copies answer to that is and what we think is up one of the better ways of doing it as we go we've got a demineralize er that can get you this water on the jobsite that you can take with you from job to job and just clean up your water because I want that that pure water whether I'm going to put two straight water in my system if I'm going to blend you know glycolysis to put my system it for some reason you're still using methanol or ethanol and your geo loops for example I want to blend all those chemicals with good water so I don't destroy the inhibitors and the different components within those so we'll talk about that when we get down to glucose but I think that's a pretty good example so what I need to know when I look at the sample water on your job site is I'd like to know the hardness of the water and I bet most of the plumbers that are tuned in today probably have water hardness test kits it's just a little dropper kit to do that I would also like to know the TDS of the water that stands for total dissolved solids so that's all the minerals in the water in addition to the ones that you can test with a hardness test kit it's going to tell me everything that's in there not won't tell me exactly how many are chlorides or how many are calcium or how many what the different types of minerals are but it's going to give me you know the total amount of solids in there and then the other thing I'd like to know is the pH of the water you know is it acid base waters that go into the alkalinity side because that's going to affect some of my components in the system also so I guess I'll start out with a poll question because I kind of want to get a feeling to what you already know out there what y'all doing out there already are you just plain water so what I'm going to ask you here if you're using now saying like a public water system do you think that whatever they're treating that water with back at the water department is adequate to put it into a hydraulic system and I'm going to give you a minute here to say yep I always trust the water that they're giving me is adequate or not or never and yes if the you know the report from the the city says that it's adequate to use because what you want to match it up with is and I'll show you here in a minute what the boiler manufactures are giving it for water spec needs to match up with what you're putting in there so what he's going to run this for a for a couple seconds here and we'll kind of get a feeling to to see what your what you assume is going on there with the water you putting in there so what you're going to find is that in the public water systems you know the EPA regulates a little bit about what they have to test for and what the levels can be but they're not trying to make water that's good for a boiler and for a hydraulic system necessarily they're trying to make water that's safe to drink that's safe to use for bathing and stuff like that so it's it's not always going to be the best water for what you you're doing so so there we have it I'm glad to see that always isn't this a majority both there sometimes never and yes if the if the city reporters matches up with what the boiler spec is so interesting well let me give you some more information to help you make a better decision there because I think you should be paying a little bit more attention to that and it also does affect our components you know a lot of the components that we make at coffee can be used for domestic water they're low led compliant valves so here's an example of a zone valve that got shipped back to us and it was used on a domestic water system and you can see the limescale from whatever was in the water that was flowing through this zone valve is actually no it's sticking to the brass there the good news here is that since we use a peroxide cured EPDM panel there we didn't have a buildup on the panel in that Valve even though that the flapper was starting to bind up a little bit from the minerals that were building up around it here the flapper didn't have a build up on it when it's open and it was still you know closing off but it got sent back so they said well is this something coming out of your brass is your brass break down here is this a you know a defect or a flaw on your component and of course now the answer is it's you it's the water that you've been putting through there and probably the temperature of the water going through there that causes those minerals to precipitate out so you know as a manufacturer we're going to do the best we can to put components inside our mixing valves inside our zone valves that there aren't going to you know scale up that the lime scale won't stick to we'll use polymers we'll use different types of in this case and EPDM that's been treated so that we don't get the scaling and the mineral buildup on that but the brass itself is still going to be susceptible to that lime scale so it doesn't that's not something that the water company is fixing for you that water could have come out of a you know maybe Chicago I forgot where that came from but that might be the water that's actually coming out of here your pipes and your faucets they're not going to take that hardness out of their foliage that's something that you're going to have to examine address so let me show you some of the tools that I use and interesting I went through Jim palings presentation this morning to get prepared almost exactly the same tools that I use and in his slide he actually put on there he had about I think 106 see six dollars invested in all the tools that he uses to check water and by the way they sell about twenty five hundred boilers a year over there at first supplies so he's got a lot of hands-on experience and what does and doesn't work and what you need to know about so again that's the the answers are in the test kit here so this is a test kit that we offer for clapping right now and this little meter is interesting in that it does both it'll measure the TDS of the fluid as well as the pH so you get kind of two in one and it comes in this little carrying case here this actually goes in this box first kind of like a Russian nesting dial that box comes in this box and it um obviously the directions on how to drive it but it also has these little packages of fluids that you can recalibrate it because when you start using test instruments occasionally you want to gonna want to put them in a fluid and recalibrate them make sure they're reading accurately because you've got a meter that's reading off a couple percent and that's not going to give you you know the right information so with included in this kit are some samples that you can adjust the pH make sure the pH is reading so typically you do that at three different ranges at seven ten and at a low range so you can see a four seven and ten fluid that's been adjusted to that pH so then you test stick your meter and that and adjust your meter to read that and the same thing with the TDS over here there's packages so you can recalibrate it so it's a pretty nice meter and that it has everything in there in there to recalibrate it so I thought you know what since there's room in that box I found that you could just take your pocketknife or an exacto knife and cut out the foam that's in there and so what I've done is I put my water hardness test kit which is these three solutions that you drop in there and then I also put my meter that reads my glycol percentage my refractometer and so everything I need to test for pH to test for the hardness of the water with the dropper kit as well as the TDS meter are on one lawn one carrying case and when I walk in I've got everything in there and again that's exactly what Jim has on his desk back there and was constantly he does water testing for his customers when they come in there so we'll go through each one of those individually and show you how they work as we go here but that's really the kit now certainly there's a lot more to know about water than what this kid here is going to tell you and there comes a point in time when you're going to want to send a sample off to an expert and and analyze if you've got a specific issue with water and maybe there's arsenic in and they're LED or something like that I can't test for that with this kit that takes a little bit more equipment a little bit more sophistication than what you can probably carry on the job site with you but this is going to get you in the ballpark if you know all the things that these meters are telling you you're going to have a pretty trouble-free system again you got to go back you know every year to and confirm that those that water those chemicals are that glycol you put in are staying at that range that you put it in there so here's an example of how you drive a TDS meter you basically turn the button on and you it'll ask you if you want to read in the US or English or metric units a couple things you have to do to set it up when you take it out of the box it's calibrated for the temperature and stuff like that but there it is in this example here you just get a sample water and the glass or a plastic container like that and just stick it in there and so on the business end of a TDS meter what you'll see is this little porous glass bulb and that's where it reads the pH of the fluid is read through that device there and these two little stainless steel prongs just go in there and basically what you're looking at there is an ohm meter it's just reading that the resistance or the conductivity I guess is the opposite of resistance is conductivity it's reading the conductivity of the water across these two prongs as you stick it in there so you just click on the button there read the pH the nice thing about this meter it also has the ATC which is an automatic temperature compensation build into it so it's critical that the temperatures of water when you test it is I think whether they say about 68 degrees to get an accurate reading on your TDS the temperature does have an effect on that this meter will compensate for that if you've got water that's a little warm or colder than 68 F the meter will calibrate that and make sure that the reading that you get is adjusted with the temperature correction and then again if you switch the button here you can read the pH of the fluid also on the temperature it reads always reads the temperature so by knowing the conductivity of the water that's going to tell us a couple things the more minerals the more stuff that's in your water the higher the conductivity of the water the higher the TDS the higher the conductivity the more potential for corrosion because now that water can carry enough current that you can get galvanic corrosion you basically got a battery formed in your system if you've got high conductivity got mixed metals like copper iron or steel or zinc in something those metals are going to respond to react to one another based on the conductivity of that water so if we strip all that stuff out of the water and get it down to a very low TDS we're not going to have issues with galvan it a corrosion we're not going to have lime scaling we're not going to have our glycol breaking down it's going to fix all the problems that you're seeing out there with your water if you just you know number one check it number two running through a device that you can pull it down there so there's just a little closer view of the the different scales when you read it with the pH measurement on the top excuse me the the temperature and the pH of that water there is at seven pH and then on the bottom it's reading the conductivity it does it for some reason to go out of range it will tell you that and it'll jump up to another scale instead of reading parts per million they'll go up to a parts per B so just read the directions when you get it so you say I got a really weird reading on my meter well it might have jumped up because you went off the range of the scale and it jumped up to a different measurement so I was good to read the directions when you set it up the first time so you understand it'll usually give you an error if it's if it's changed and gone to a different thing it might say I think it says oh are over range or something like that it'll tell you okay I'm switching gears here just so you know and don't get confused by the reading so and if you have if you have a question with that you know Kevin's really good at that I've got a little experience with setting the meter up in troubleshoot that so just call us if you have a question or have trouble with the reading so as usual the European seem to be a couple steps ahead of us on water quality they already realize that this is going to be a bigger problem than it has been in the past so they're developing standards and probably the most comprehensive one that I've seen when you go to these different websites is this German VDI standard VDI is actually the engineering Association in Germany it's kind of the equivalent of our ASHRAE group here in the US and BDI and actually I think there's a hundred and fifty thousand members in that BDI group and I think Astra here is about fifty thousand members so it's a pretty big brain trust of engineers that have been working on developing the standards and saying okay what do we need to test for and how do we do it so when you have a minute look through those different standards because we're thinking this European especially this German VDI 2035 the standard that we should really be considering for the US you know some that we should look at is what all the different things that they want you to look at for the water how they test that and what the results are again when you get a chance go and download that and read through it because there's some really good information and I applaud them for putting it in there understandably because sometimes when you get in the water chemistry it gets into some pretty big terms and if you don't have a degree in chemistry you start to get lost in the in the mix there but you can see over here on the on the right and some of the things they're talking about you know cavitation erosion line scale coating we understand what those things are and what problems they caused in our systems so it relates directly to what we do in our business it's not something to say well this wasn't you know built for some other industry and we're trying to morph it over no this is exactly what you need to know about the water that we're putting in our system so one of the things that interest in there is they they're the opinion and again there's various opinions out there I'm you know how you would fix your water if you determine is in the opinion that you should fix the water before you put it in your boiler or your killer your solar system whatever that they seen and I tend to agree with this that if you run the water through some sort of filtration device before you put it in there if it's got high TDS or a lot of hardness and you're going to end up with a system that you really don't need to do much more to if the water is good in there and it's compatible with all the metals in the system and it meets the spec of the boiler manufacturing you should be fine with just putting that good water in there the other side the other opinion that's out there is well no you should put a chemical in the water because that will fix some of the things that could go wrong with your water it'll give you some other you know components like film providers and stuff like that but as you can see we kind of highlighted this here that they're really in the opinion that if you put in good water that's been filtered through a mineralize er reverse osmosis or something like that that's really all you should need to do to that water and everything in that system should be fine as far as compatibility we won't have any scaling you won't lose performance you won't have a pin holing and stuff like that so I want to offer both sides of the story I want to show you some of the things towards the end here that you know the chemicals as far as cleaners and inhibitors and inhibited glycol why they do that and what some of the benefits are doing that but again if you get a chance to read through that standard you'll learn quite a bit now if you get to the point where you think you're getting in over your head and you're not quite sure you know that you're testing properly or that you're getting the right results when you use your test equipment all the companies that manufacture chemicals out there I have to put Roma or up there because they have this sheet in my desk you can send them a sample and here's an example we're on the right and all the different water sampling that they'll do for you based on how much you want to know about your waters they've got a basic one that will test the glycols if you do in the steam system you want a little bit more information about the water that has to deal specifically with steam boilers they can test for that but as you can see the price of testing varies based on how much you want to know about the water so you can spend hundreds of dollars breaking down water through all these different tests but I would encourage you if you've got a system where there's a lot of liability involved like maybe a hospital or a university where there's a lot of big expensive equipment that's going to be a big problem if it starts failing because of the water that you put in there it might be wise to send a sample off to a professional like this and get a written analysis back and just keep that in the file somewhere or give it to that job site as a copy and say okay this is what we did when we put the system together the water met all the quality specs of your equipment of your engineering spec and if something goes wrong down the line if somebody's come in there after the fact and put chemicals in there change that water added something to it you're going to have to test that water and we want that document so that protects you that protects the building owner that protects everybody in the loop here that the water was in fact analyzed for all the proper quiet since we're a house that it was treated to the right conditions that you're using it before now you can get this from furniture and get this from Rohmer you get this from Sentinel I'll bet there's water quality treatment companies local to where you are in the bigger cities pretty much have people that can do this sometimes universities can do that I know some of the wholesalers that we do business with have labs in the back of their shop that they can do these type of tests and tell you what's going on with either your your water your glycol so certainly you want to use that information and here's an example one of our wholesalers that was having problems with the job he's getting pinholes and some stainless steel boilers within a couple years of putting them in there so we send it off to a professional lab and this is kind of an example what you might get back from a lab now if you don't know what all these things are that's a good time to ask those people okay why is this important so basically what he's showing you here is he's giving you a little comment at the end okay these are the things that they felt were out of whack in the water that were causing their problems and so you can see the pH here is a little bit low why would the pH that low well it did have some glycome at one point and when that glycol goes bad that's going to be your primary indicator that the glycol has been burned or overheated or the pH has been compromised because of the dirty fluid or something that system and that's the note that he put on there why is the pH of the system so low if you're telling me this is just City fill water there's something else there's something going on with the system that you need to get to the bottom of so and again now it's documented so if something happened to the system again you can say okay this is the analysis that we had done and did you fix this pH determine why that happened and what you're going to do to buffer that back up and get it to the acceptable level so again the professional can help you with the analysis like that so what we did is we just went to some of the different boiler manufacturers out there we went right to their website and we pulled off some of their water spec information so here's an example one and they're telling you the hardness needs to be below a certain level now the English unit there we typically talk about grains per gallon when we're talking about higher this you can convert that in the parts-per-million adapt to language that you speak or the metric unit would be milligrams per liter there but typically we're going to talk about either grains per gallon or parts of em I like that they put it in both readings here this happens to be a German company so that's why it's in both measurements there and then they're going to tell you the pH range and a couple of the other things here really the number that I want to look at a course at the pH here if they say keep it around seven my course you got adjusted or see what your water is and again the biggie right down here is this total dissolved solids that you can check with our meter the TDS of that fluid now these here the zinc and some of these other things now I don't have a tester that can do that that would have to go to a lab to do that why we're concerned about the dissolved gases in there especially oxygen that's what makes water aggressive for corrosion and we're the opinion if you use a good component like a Columbia discount air separator you're going to pull all those dissolved gases both the air the dissolve co2 and oxygen out of there I just run it through a good air separation device like a micro bubble type of device so not so concerned about this number down here if I point it back but we do want you to fix this we do want you to fix the pH so we're doing for time here looking pretty good and this one now I didn't I know this a little cluttered hopefully you don't have to read through all these but what I'm trying to show here is I would hope that the boiler companies could all get on the same page because here's what one two three four five different boiler manufacturers and if you notice here you got one guy saying it's got to be between five and fifteen the other guys saying below seven the other guys say in between this and that this one up here he's got his pH between six point six and eight obviously that six point six isn't going to be very good an aluminum boiler so it's everybody's just got different numbers out there and I don't understand number one where they're getting these numbers from some of those tds numbers some way out of the ballpark i don't know they copying each other this guy's got 500 parts per million the guy over here is got a thousand parts per million and i just pulled this off the internet this is from I think University of Kentucky somewhere one of their dead sites and it shows an indication of what's considered soft slightly hard moderately hard very hard water and if you notice down here very hard water one of these specs over here seems to be happy with that one of these says between five and fifteen and here they're saying anything over ten is very hard water so something's not something's not clear to me that why these specs are so so different and why they're all over the board as far as what they're what they're given acceptable water quality because if you put in one boiler and you got your water below seven grains like this guy down here is saying now you're fine you got warranty coverage if something goes wrong with that and they say well no your water was too hard and say no it's below seven grains like it told me but then next we could go and use Brand X over here and you say in 15 grains well now you're you know which is it and you know it's like two men say they're Jesus one of them must be wrong so I guess there's a shout-out to the boy they're people that might be online today that you guys it'd be nice if we could all get on the same page here and I think looking at that German standard would be one way to do that because I think their numbers are right out I think they've done enough research to come up with a good you know a defensible number there as far as the hardness and the TDs and the pH of the water so I want to I'm trying to look at some of the questions that came in over the last couple webinars to make sure that I've answered some of these past ones and stuff like that and maybe if you are going because I'm going to go into chemicals now I want to get to the water one of the questions says you know is the water that comes out of the city good Norfolk can I just assume that if I'm using city water that it's adequate and the answer course is no you don't know what the TDS of that water is until you test they might not be doing that I've seen some water quality statements that come out that they'll you know have pH and others don't that you know they're just mainly going to test for the things that either the federal government or the state government tells them they have to so you really should be doing your own testing and not trusting that what they say because as we learn from Flint Michigan the water that they're putting into the pipes at the treatment plant by the time it gets your faucet it could be a completely different water if it's pulled some of the lead out of the old lead pipes because the biofilms been scrubbed off so what they're testing at the plant what you're getting out of your faucet the other end could be completely different so we want you to test it at the final the final point of use there another question came in as far as pH can I use test strips you know I know some of the glycol people send out these pH test strips that the problem I have with that is it's just though it's just a round number it's going to give you a pH a seven eight nine or ten it won't read in between like a 7.5 and if you don't have great eyesight it's sometimes hard to see is it Pinker's it red or is it orange you know where exactly am i and you know again for under 100 bucks you can buy a good pH meter that's going to give you a good solid number instead of trying to interpolate between the different things because what's important to know about pH when you go from a 7 to a 10 pH for example there's a tenfold change in the hydroxide in that it's not just one number doesn't change a little bit there's a pretty big jump about the quality that water going from one pH comes from a 7 2 & 8 so I want that number to be very accurate as you saw in those boiler specs they're saying like 7.5 and 6.5 and stuff like that you got to be pretty tight especially on your aluminum boilers you don't want a guesstimate that pH so I would encourage you to get a meter that reads that out instead of using the test strip so that was one of the one of the questions that see once again in there so let me get let's run another poll and that'll give me a time while this is running the read setup like page is a question down my desk and I'll make sure that I'm hitting them all as many as I can get to but what if you want to run this here I guess you can just read through that what the most important thing that ensure ongoing chemical performance is it checking for the pH and TSI probably already answered this for you the slides and stuff like that so let me teach you some of my stuff here really all these questions have to do with you know how do I measure it and what do I do if it's bad so I think I'm answering pretty much every question on you I'll get to some of the glycol ones as we get a little bit further in but the only one that I came up with here that I couldn't really answer very well for you is how do you measure dissolved oxygen well that's something it takes a pretty expensive meter there's actually three different tests you can do for dissolve oxygen but that's probably something that you're going to have you know a professional do they're going to have the equipment to do and get an accurate number on that but other than that as far as the how this and the pH and stuff like that I think I've already shown you the meters that can do that now once you start using inhibitors and chemicals you're going to have to get a test kit from that company to measure that because now when you put stuff in the water you're going to raise the TDS the conductivity of that water but if you're putting good minerals good chemicals in there you might get a boost in your TDS but it might be a good thing so we come up with here on this side yeah minimum minimize o2 ingress yeah you certainly want to do that either you want to keep the oxygen from getting in there begin with or maybe put an oxygen scavenger like a sulfite or something in there that will absorb any oxygen that might be getting through the wall your tubing or around your pump seals and stuff like that hey Bob yeah this some Paul was actually intended for later when we talk about antifreeze all right okay just a little bit further yeah but but but that's okay because glycol is a form of chemical and maybe we can touch base upon the results of this poll about antifreeze if you want to comment on it then we can back up and talk about the results that was shown in the previous slide about earlier poll having to do with how to see if your chemicals in general are working okay working at operative yeah and what will sound like on this one here that 41% of you are checking the refractometer which is the freeze protection because at the end of the day you're buying glycol so some freeze things so it's good that people know that number in our check and that's how I'm encouraged that 41 percent of the responses are checking that on there so yeah let's uh like I said let's roll on through the chemicals in glycol and I think cool before we maybe before we leave this Bob I think it was this is very insightful because you can for a glycol you want to make sure that the glycol does not end up becoming exposed to too much oxygen because the glycol will with dissolved oxygen it will tend to run to become acidic and usually the glycol manufacturer will state a range above which they want that glycol to stay otherwise it gets below that your glycol starting to become acidic and in losing its properties so so it's good absolutely you're the best way as a check there with the refractometer everyone has most people have indicated here that and then a quick check is your ph within your specified range now that's only a quick check your pH could be within your specified range but if your glycol was mixed with water they had minerals in it it might not change the pH but as we learn from Jeff persons those minerals will react with the the glycol inhibitors and they'll come out of solution so your your freeze protection drops even though a pH looks like it's good so so those are all these are all interesting points to look at from antifreeze standpoint and certainly the people at the top indicating minimize your oxygen ingress so yeah they know for sure that you got to keep that oxygen exposure to glycol to an absolute minimum and that means a lot of things including very good air separators yeah and I'll build on that a little because that's excellent information and one of the things that we've been told about glide causes their oxygen sponges so if you leave gleich on an unsealed container or you have to have it in an open vessel like some of the chill guys do with their pump stations that oxygen is going into that glycol and it's going to break down that glycol and the other thing that been told is you always want to have it in a UV protected container to don't put it in a you know player I don't know where you get it clear container that big but the UV will break it down also and a lot of the chemicals that the water treatment plan are putting in there like the phosphates and some of the stuff for turbidity and different things that they're treating for their water will cause a guy called like Jeff person said it will actually cause your glycols to gel so you do want to fix the water that you're going to blend the glycol unless you're buying pre-blended glycol that they use good water the water that you're mixing with that can from day one compromise that glycol can break down the inhibitors can actually start causing it to gel right out the gate gate right out the gate so that's what we're talking about you know you got to keep the o2 out of that system once you put the glide colors in there the same thing with the pH that's the biggest indicator when you got to replace your glycol I think down when Kevin Connor from dollars on here said you know if you're getting into the low 7 2007 hitters and it's going to be hard to put enough inhibitors back in that glycol to salvage it back to where it needs to be up into the probably 8.5 92.5 pH range is what typical new glycol is going to be so we talked about the refractometer for your freeze protection and then the other thing that breaks down glycol probably the biggest thing that we are concerned with is when you start using solar thermal systems because that temperature up in those collectors can exceed our collector can go up to about 344 degrees F on an 85 degree day so that's that one down near the bottom there we don't want to flash that turn that to steam because we're going to overheat that glycol break it down and again that will typically show up in a in a pH number also so yeah that's good let me get back to to where it was here because because I am going to talk about glycol more and talk more about those things so one of the first and I think one of the most important steps is when you put in a new system you think about what's in that systems you're soldered copper pipe so you got flux in there which most America writes or ammonia or stuff like that as a cleaning agent you've got oil in there you might have pipe dope in there there's assembly lubes and wait you know when we put stuff together clapping we use lock tight and there's lock tight probably inside some of the tips that we send out to you we need to get all that stuff out there and it sometimes takes more than just putting water and then flushing it out because to break those oils and some of those assembly lubes that might be in your boilers and stuff like that you kind of need a detergent or a soap or cleaners so I'm of the opinion that you want to fill up your system pressure-tested if you don't have a leak just fill it with the water that's on the job site and put a cleaner there put a detergent in there you know you can buy those cleaners from hydronic suppliers years ago we used to use tsp it's kind of hard to find TSP anymore that's the phosphates have been taken out of it but get a cleaner in there and make sure that you're starting out with a good clean system before you put in glycols even before you put in good demineralized or deionized water we want to get all that junk out of there because it's going to affect the you know the corrosiveness or the pH of that water just from the stuff that you left behind so if you've got an older system where you're taking out an old boiler and you notice there's a lot of limescale when you start taking the pipes apart you break apart the old boiler when you took it out of there and it's all scaled up you might have to get a little bit more aggressive cleaner in there something that's like a vinegar and acid based cleaner to dissolve those minerals that are in there a typical soap type of cleaner isn't going to go after those hard thick layers and mineral deposits that might have built up in there so if you see that in the system and again you can Hercules makes a product Romar fur knocks everybody makes a what they call a scalex type of product and that's basically going to be an acid that will go after that hard scale build-up and dissolve it and wash it out of there and then like I said the dirt and the sludge is going to be something that comes out with a time your with a soap based cleaner so the answer is you know purge everything that's on there put the cleaner there now when one last bit of advice when you use a cleaner you got to make sure you get all the cleaner flushed out of there before you put your good water in one of the best ways and Jim paling talked about this in his presentation he said check the TDS of the water coming out of there and that's going to tell you if you got all the cleaners out before you put the good water he said it takes a lot longer than you think to get all that stuff washed out of all the you know the far extremes of your gradient loops and whatever might be in that building so he said you know it takes sometimes you know hours to run enough water through there make sure you got the cleaners flushed out before you put in your good water before you put in your chemicals your glycol whatever you're going to use so basically what the conditioners we're going to do then if you're going to go that route is they're going to buffer your pH so if your pH happens to be a little bit lower a little bit high at the get-go you can get pH up and get pH up or down boosters that will boost that up the oxygen scavengers or chemically I know they're using different polymers different chemicals these days it used to be like a sulfide that we put in there so basically consumes or uses up any leftover oxygen that you didn't get purged out through the you know when you heat it up your boiler and you've got all your dissolved air out through your air purge or if there's any Oh to left in there we're going to scavenge that out and then if there is a little bit of hardness residual harvest from the water one of the chemicals that are in those and corrosion inhibitors it kind of it's a I think the word is flocculent and it keeps those minerals in suspension so instead of the minerals falling out of solution and scaling out if you drain the water on a boiler it's got that type of chemical and you see on the water looks look really dirty and gray or brown colored well that's because of the chemical in there is keeping all those deposits in solution so they don't scale out on the surfaces your boiler and your heat exchangers your pumps and stuff like that so they just kind of lock it up and keep it flowing through the system and I think the most important reason to use some of these up inhibitor chemicals is they have a film provider so once you have stripped your metal down the bare copper and bare stainless steel with your cleaners with your chemical that you use your soaps or your acids what the film providers do is they get in there they put like a micron thick layer of a film it's almost like if you take a piece of aluminum and if you anodized aluminum really what you're doing is your rust and they're corroding the aluminum gives it a protective layer so it doesn't attack the metal below it like a lawn furniture outboard motors are typically anodized aluminum and just putting a film over the top layer of that and it protects it so that's kind of what you're getting when you put these intimidating hibbott or chemicals but now what you've got is you have to keep checking that you have to go back every year every couple years and check that and make sure that you haven't used up or consumed these different ingredients that were put in there because then your water is going to go downhill on again become aggressive again so basically what you started now is a chemical romance once you put those in there you got to go back you got to check and some time to time you might get the boost and in the case of like all that gets really bad you're going to have to take it out there and start over because you can't fix it or salvage it so just learn them what you need to do the test and here's an example of some of the kits that are out there that make it easy for you to do both these steps like the top one there that fern locks those are little aerosol cans with a little hose bib connection and you just screw them on your boiler drain or some hose connection on your system some of our dirt kales have a hose connection on the bomb that you could squirt this fluid in there so you put the cleaner in first the first product and you run that for you know a day or something like that and then you flush that out and see they give you a little pH test strips there to make sure that you've got it flushed out and then you squirt it in the second chemical which your inhibitor has the film providers and all the other stuff and you can see pretty much all the companies out there make it easy for you with these kids that have different you know quantity dozen depending on the capacitor system if you want to buy gallons or five gallon containers of this for bigger jobs they're going to arm be able to help you with that this product down here from Sentinel is another example they you know a product that you'd have to have a little pump or some sort of injector to get it into the system so obviously the directions on how to drive all that and stuff you want to pay attention to and then here's just again an example of some of the different hitters and chemicals that you can put in you can see the pH down the pH up on the bottom right over here this is more of an acid based with a little aerial cleaner over here if you've got a lot of lime scale buildup in there you would put this in there to break down the scale cleaner is inhibited glycol that you can buy you'll find that most of the chemical companies that sell these chemicals also saw glycols we tell glycol it coffee and we had a special formula made out of a bio formula and it happens to be a real high temperature glycol we made it specifically for our solar system so it's got a real high operating temperature so we put a really good buffer package in it it is aluminum friendly and it is a high temperature because what you're going to see and what you're going to find is some of the new solar collectors now are based I have aluminum waterways in them so you better make sure that the fluids you put in there aluminum friendly if you get a new collector that used to be compromised aluminum waterways you got to have that tight ph glycol that's in there so how do you get it in there well i just showed you in that previous slide that some of those are aerosol cans that you just did to tell you once you hook that up and pull the trigger in about five seconds it's gone so make sure you got a good and tighter it's going to be on your lap or on the floor instead of in the system so make sure when you hook those up that you get a good tight connection on your on your hose bib when you pull the trigger because it goes in quickly and then i'm bigger system gives a lot of commercial buildings you see these little pot feeders where you just take the lid off and you dump your chemical in there and then open a couple ball valves over here and it just flushes out of the pod feeder in your system now here's an example if you get a radiator that's at a high point your system you could I guess put a little funnel like there that must be from the UK probably and you can just pour the inhibitor the chemicals in there injected we also sell the hydrophilic art which is a hydrologic art I mean it has a pump on it so you could pump the fluid in there you could run a cleaner through the system with our pump card for a couple days to clean out a system kimberley adherence to get another pole I think I covered this already why would you put the chemicals in there we're the opinion like the VDI standard that I showed you that I'd rather fix the water that I put it in there but there are chemicals that like I said you can put in there that will keep the deposits in solution if you've got you know a lot of minerals in your water you know there's a fix for pretty much anything with chemicals these days from the food that we eat to the water that we put in our boiler but this little pole here you know I guess we're asking you why you would use these chemicals and I think again we kind of giving you reasons why you would or wouldn't want to use that I guess you want to run this woody and see what we come up with for answers hey Bob this was them Bob this was a poll that we ran last time this is just the results to make any comments about the house I got my toolbars in the way I'm hiding the results okay I see there you go yep I see the results now all right so 36 percent of people are really looking at some kind of chemical treatment so all right well good information to know thanks it's a lot more cost effective effective like I said to fix the water before you put in there then get in the system and try and clean it out and repair and go back and you know fix the harm that's been done to the system when you get limescale and stuff in it so you know start at day one and you know test your water and deal with it now I will be honest with you and there comes a point if your water has incredibly hard water some of the ice up in Saskatoon is the TDS it's off the scale at a thousand parts per million there comes a point in time when it might be wiser to go and buy water from a professional company because if you I saw companies up there that had our ogen it's the size of a pickup truck you know they can sell you water cheaper than you could do it with a you know a card on the job site that's going to plug up after you put a couple hundred gallons through it because your water is crazy hard or super high TDS so you know use common sense when you look at your water and say well am I going to completely use up the resin bags you know just getting through one system here you know again go to a professor what I found when I was up there in the and can't up around that Saskatoon area that most of the the wholesalers up there already know what's in their water around there and they already know what they need to do to fix it and they admit that at some point you just send them down to the water treatment company with their barrel or with their with their tote and they buy water that's been run through a big commercial arrow or the ionizer and just take it along with you and it's going to it's going to be a simpler and more cost effective to do that so I think I talked about this a little bit about the purpose of the conditioner is that you know we want to passivate the metal when I protect the metal buffer and scavenge it again if you're using aluminum components aluminum boiler aluminum tubing at your job make sure that you're using them fluid that's specific to that so I want to get to glide calls because this I know is a big a lot of the questions that I got here in front of you have to do with glycosyl on the June 4 time here I'm going to run a little 8 again sorry about that but we talked about this one we ran this one a little bit earlier that and I think we talked about this mark and eyeballs as far as all the points they're a couple of trivia things I put in there it's my call in the in the raw form is used for a lot of food products and stuff like that so it's not a you know an aggressive chemical by itself but once you put inhibitors in there and once you overheat glycol you put bad water in with it you do break down the glycol and that's when you start to see your pH numbers and stuff like that it's a thicker fluid to pump around through your system so you're typically done there where I talk about viscosity you're typically going to look at your pumping requirements when you use it in there I talked about it breaking down with the presence of oxygen if you put in an open container this is interesting about glycol they don't have a sharp freeze point like water when you get it down to 32 degrees it's going to freeze glide cause what they'll do first when you get down there they're freeze point is they'll turn into a slush first and that's actually the slush a bit thicker and thicker until it gets to a freeze burst point so you got a little bit of wiggle room on those numbers when you look at the freeze protection there's going to be a point when you can no longer pump it but it's not going to burst your pipes and cause a problem so I yes my my bottom line is there when you mix a percentage to glycol don't mix a real strong percentage like 50 or 60% glycol water you don't need that low of a freeze protection rate what you're really concerned about is the burst temperature on that fluid not so much one that's getting to a slush where it's going to be hard to pump it won't pump at all but you just don't want to start bursting pumps I think people think sometimes when they do a snow out that they got to put a real strong solution to glycol because it could get below zero out there well you know you might lose your ability to pump it at a thirty degree below zero day but it's not going to burst your pipe so just you know pay attention to the blend ratios when you do that there's a ton of good information out on the website right now this is a manual that you can download right at the Dow site and there's more things about glycol that you probably want to know in your lifetime so if you want to get more into the the chemical components and learn more about glycol that's a good reference there that's available a good example there that in fact this was slide that that Kevin Connor when he did the presentation that's why it's got the Dow logo on it he said be aware of your pump head he said also be aware your expansion tank sizing the glycol because that you know 1.2 times bigger size your expansions because that of Scots Luud when you heat it up and expands and this like that point I've had this brought up to me a couple times that it's better to get air you can see in this picture over here it's harder to get air out of glycol and what the glycol manufacturers do is they actually put an anti foaming agent in there is one of the ingredients in there because it tends to get this little frosty mix on it when you start putting it through a some terrific up um so again a clumpy disc out does a good job of getting that out but it might take a few days more longer than it does with just water in the system to make sure all that air is out of there we talked about the the problem with that of course is it can cause your pumps to cavitate and stuff like that so it takes a little bit more time we feel that these are the best devices to get even this this kind of foam that you get on the top there when you start pumping that through a subtropical pump we're going to pull that out with our disc Al's and I'd Mogollon that time here but this is just showing an example of a basic little residential system that had water into it and the customer calls and said hey listen we're going to Florida this winter we want you to come over in the winter eyes our hydronic system so it doesn't freeze and just know that if you took that water out of this system here with a little five a five gallon per minute flow rate with a little love you know forty eight watt 46 watt pump in there by putting a 50% glycol solution there it's going to take quite a bit more pumping power to move that system fluid around there because of the viscosity that fluid so if you're changing a fluid make sure that your adjust your pumping power to be able to move that I think this this down here gives you a pretty good example that if you're going to blend your own glycol I'm going to buy straight glycon blended on the job site here's the criteria this again comes from one of the dow spec sheets what the water that you're using needs to meet if you're going to blend your own glycol so they talk about the parts per million here on the cards again you can read that with your TDS meter they're breaking it down all these different minerals or sulfates and chlorides but again a TDS meter that's reading below 100 parts per million on your water it's going to be adequate water to blend that with and they talked a little bit about the pH or the water on the the dissolved metals and different things that are in your in your water and also when it's time to replace the fluids in your system if it gets outside of those ranges there it's time to flush that fluid out if your pH has dropped and below that and I think Jeff person gave us these slides is an example of exactly what happens when you take good glycol and you mix it with um demineralized water there's a steel wool sample that was put in there and after six months looks pretty good and here's that same propylene glycol that was mixed with well water that probably had a lot of hardness or TDS in it and you can see the difference between the reaction that steelwill in that fluid because the again you didn't use a good quality water when you built that glycol and it's starting to break down that that fine steel wool in there when you first put glycol in a system out of the box it's going to look like this depending on the brand depending on the type of glycol they all have different colors most of them are fluorescent color when you put them in there if you go back a year later and it's got a coffee color to it it's been indication that you've destroyed that glycol two things are going to give you an indication to that is number one to color the fluid if it's a coffee colored and also the smell of it it kind of when you put it in I have like a sweet almost a sugary smell to it when it breaks down it gets this I've heard people describe it as a cross between a men's locker room in a cotton candy still got a little bit of a sweet smell to if it's got a mess musty old stinky smell to it that's again put your meter in it but that will be an indication just from your nose at that glycol has been been destroyed it's time to think about cleaning and flushing it out of there so here's what I want you to do I went to the pressure test I think I talked about this and want to film pressurize I want you to circulate a cleaner through there on an old dirty system once you flush it out until the TDS the fluid coming out of it matches the fluid that you're putting into it and then either put your bike on the system either pre blinded or mix it on the jobsite with good water and then what I want you to do when you leave that job is put a sticker on that boiler on that system somewhere and put a note on what you did you know I put a 40 percent glycol mix in here put the name put the pH that you left to that put the date that you put it in there so if you go back through two years later another technician goes back he says well you know what's in the system I don't want just drain it out and start over until I know what's happened and you know if you come up to a system with an unknown fluid this is one of the questions what if I come up to a system that is glycol and I have no idea what the guy before me put in there can I put other glycol can I mix glycol is in there well yes and no you can actually blend different propylene glycol to PGS without a problem the problem that you might have is somebody put an ethylene glycol barrier before you in the eg glycol and now you go back and you mix another peachy glycol with that the two of them will mix together and they'll go through the system and they'll be it anti-freeze fine but you end up with an unknown toxicity because the PG is going to have a higher toxicity than the PG so you kind of got a little bit of a witch's brew in there so if you don't know what somebody else put in there and you want to be sure that you do it right you know unfortunately you're probably going to have to drain it out and start over I always like to leave a container the fluid that I use behind you know an empty one with the label on it and they actually when I do a solar system I'll put the pressure relief valve discharge tube right down in that empty container for two reasons if it ever pops off I saved the fluid number one I don't make a mess on the floor and also I've got the container showing me or the next guy what kind of fluid went in there the first time so we can make sure that he puts the same or similar fluid back into the system there's a fluid that we offer again I talked about this we only have in five gallon containers we can ship that out to if you want a good quality a high temperature good inhibiter package glycol we uh we have at net five gallon container and green um how much later am i here mark and a couple minutes but I do more slides if you can hang in there with you it looks like a lot of people stay in our room so I'll keep going here so this is an example of a little drawing that collectedly put together for us of what's going on inside a heat exchanger and a boiler so if you look at this over here this is in fact the slide that Jim paling had he had temperatures up over 2,600 degree flame temperatures on some of the boilers here so this is your burn burned or your flame temperature this is your metal and now this happens to be a mod convoy there that might be a few thousands of thickness of metal that's between this high-intensity flame and this being your fluid your water your glycol your blended whatever you put in your system so the failure mechanism when you get a pinhole in a boiler or a component an expansion tank or whatever is you'll get a scale buildup like this here and it creates this hot spot so now what happens is when this heats trying to get through to this water you've actually put a little bit of an insulation layer in there and that's where you're going to overheat that metal and that's where when you see a boiler it's got a pinhole probably on the other side that pinhole if you were to take a you know bandsaw and cut that in half you would see a big scale buildup on the other side of it and this kind of gives you a little example of the temperatures that you can expect to see here and this also shows a good example when you heat water you're going to drive these little micro bubbles out of solution so if you were to put a pan on your stove tonight when you go home and put fill it up with water and turn the burner on you would see these little bubbles rise up out of that pan and that's this little air that's entrained and that's fluid that's being driven out as you increase the temperature of them and that's why we always want to put a good air separator microbubble type of air suffering like a disc al right at the boiler so as these little bubbles are being formed every time that boiler fire kicks on I want to grab and get these bubbles out of the system before they get out into my in my components because of an air Locker causing noise problems so this is an ongoing thing this is going to happen anytime that you heat cool water you're going to the water is going to reabsorb any air that was left to dissolve the air that's in that system every time the water cools down and every time you turn this burner back on and heat it up you're going to drive this air back out of solution so I need to be able to catch it and grab it and get it out of the system so it doesn't dumb doesn't cause problems there's the QB the hydrophilic art that we offer now from Columbian basically this is a D D ionizer demineralize is about the same thing so there's a resin bed in here that's got some media in it that's got both a positive and negative charge is actually a biased bag of resin in there so we're going to hook a hose on the bottom of this we're going to flow water through there and there happens to be a TDS meter at the top so I know the water that's coming out of there is going to meet the TDS that you that you're trying to get to per year your boiler spec now one of the what's the question they had oh one of the questions that came in a couple questions about this what about the low water cutoff probes that we use that use a probe style low water cutoff don't they need to have a little bit of conductivity left in the water so those can read and yes you're exactly right they do and so what we did in our lab there in Milwaukee you're so going we were developing this card is we bought I think five or six different brands of low water cutoff probe types and we put them in the water that as it came out of us and we measured the TDS of the water and we found if you get down below about what we have I think about 12 on remark if you remember exact about 10 or 12 ppm on the TDS meter those low water probes wouldn't make anymore because it wasn't enough conductivity so you don't want to put water that's been stripped completely of everything get a to pure because you're not going to have the conductivity now what we found is even if you take the water out of here down at a low parts per million let's say you got it down to five parts per million put it in the system what we found within sometimes hours or within the first day it's going to pull some of the metals some of the brass or copper or something out of this maybe on your body here and it's going to buffer that that number back up a little bit just from what it pulls out of the system and so you know if your concern right off the get-go you again you can put a pH booster to boost that up if you want to make sure when you leave the job that you've got your your conductivity up high enough to make sure that your low water probes aren't going to air out on you and kick off your system so yeah you do have to pay attention to those low water probe type of them hey Bob um this is Mark the several manufacturers of low water cut-offs that we tested with using dim mineralized water it was ten parts per million that was pretty much the common cut in and cut out point where those conductivity type probe low water cut offs work so and it's a good point that you said that did mineralize err whether it's cliffy or any other brand in the marketplace let Susan mix bed media is going to take the water strip it out in the end the TDS is going to be basically zero conductivity is going it conductivity is gone but with the conductivity down as well as with the pH being somewhat lowered well any metals in the system are going to are going to are going to end up reacting with the water and what will happen is two things in any hydronic system is your pH is going to tend to want to drift back up and well I think the last slide you have this will show a little bit about how that happens and it typically will stabilize somewhere in the range of 8 the range that just about every boiler manufacturer whether it's things to or aluminum will say they're happy with or even a chiller and the other thing that happens is that the tds which is how those conductivity meters work off of that also Rises and as you'll see in that german VDI standard or the swiss standard typically a range of tds that all systems tend to stabilize to over time is between 30 and 60 parts per million or or measured in conductivity 50 to 100 micro Siemens per centimeter so if I'm line there is basically even with de mineralized water you're going to have no problem with your low water cutoff we had a couple of issues where people had had a problem but they just had added just a little bit of tap water and the conductivity just quickly up to where the water cutoff worked perfectly yeah the day they were there they wanted to get that back up so they didn't walk away from requestable if it's right on the borderline so yeah it's good there by itself but if you want to make sure before you leave yeah just blend in a little the water that's on the job site and bring that up a little bit right we're going good yeah thanks right but the reason why the pH even drops is that when you come up atom inner Eliezer is that the water is looking for it's looking for carbon dioxide and if you are if you if you if you take a long time to fill your system up that demineralized water has time to absorb carbon dioxide and create a slight acid called carbonic acid in your PA it would drop down a little bit and as a result those systems will see a little bit of a drop in pH when they fill their systems up other systems that just really raise the water through purge all the air ahead there's no chance for that reaction to take place and duster pH is going to be more like a neutral pH that you'd find in any any kind of water great well thanks for helping out with that yeah I think I just a few more here I think I just kind of show a little bit of how our example the resin that's inside of our our hydrophobic art that I just showed in that previous slide so you can see what we do there is we've got some positive and some negatives in there so we're going to pull everything that's in that very first bubble that I showed you one of the first slides we had some and some blues in that bubble by putting it through this type of res and we're going on pull it out and there's kind of the graphic of what's happening so there's your water your table my boys after three days of talking here there's all the different things some of those you might recognize the calcium's and the different minerals that are in there some of those with scaling minerals so there as you can see the cation the positive charge there's pulling out the opposites and then you've got the opposite charge there so by the time you go through the multiple resin media that we've got in there you're going to end up with pretty much h2o down at the bottom you end up with pure water hey Bobby this is a good point a few questions we're addressing this particularly issue about contaminants in their water when you use a demineralize er such exists as mixed bed media it's going to any mineral that's end solution it's going to pull it out whether it's iron or manganese or calcium or magnesium in erally a deionized but when it comes to additives to water that are not mineral based and our instead carbon-based for example glycol ethanol and those type of those do not ionize and as we read those don't ionize and as a result they would not get pulled out as a solution but additives that typically are put into glycol to stabilizers will ionize and demineralize demineralized will pull mono solution so a question that came in is can I use a demineralize ER that has an assistant has glycol and and run it through the demineralize ER and you could do that but you just be stripping out all of the inhibitors out of your glycol and then therefore rendering it vulnerable to being broken down in the longer freeze protection yeah and I'd like to say why would you do that because now you just take in your glycol and destroyed your glycol for the purpose get your water fix better you know start over just drain it all out and start from square one with a clean system with the right water with the right glycol it's hard to go back and fix systems especially when you don't know exactly what's going on or what's happened over pet so another question that came in Bob on this is that how about by city water has chlorine chlorine in it what will happen well we saw from an earlier slide that if left under water coming from the system municipal water supply with chlorine they're governed by the national safety standards they have that chlorinated content to a minimum level I think I saw that stainless steel boiler manufacture spec that you showed a few slides back I said chlorine should be kept below five parts per million or five milligrams per liter and I think that is that that that is higher than what the municipal City water will allow their water to get to so it shouldn't be an issue even though you might be able to taste it chlorides are different though chlorides is that chlorine chlorides are a little bit more aggressive and and and so and they do ionized so boiler manufacturers sometime we'll have a separate spec for how much chloride concentration could be in the water for their boiler to be protected and it seems that the chlorides are the most concern to people that make stainless steel both indirect water heaters and boilers that's the number that seems to make them a little bit nervous and they usually have a pretty tight spec on it so if you have I think even the stainless steel water heaters you buy now we'll have that spec right on the label on the side make sure that the chloride levels are below this now to know if you've got chloride levels above that you kind of need a meter that tests for that specifically because in your TDS you could have chlorides but it could be you know it could be the calcium it could be magnesium it could be any of the other things in this problem that are causing that TDS meter it isn't going to tell you what these different things are so if you need to know the cards and I looked into those it gets to be a little bit more expensive of a test to test for chloride levels so I think that example that you showed earlier though that test report does spell out all of those critical type of contaminants sides being one of them I remember that that water was around 24 parts per million and chloride that's starting to get to be a little bit on the high side that might have been ground water based I'm not quite sure mostly most municipal water the chlorides and the nitrates and sulfates will typically be very very low and as a rule as it relates to corrosion they're typically pretty good without having to really treat them for them for the most part with my exception many municipal water supplies will pull their water out of aquifers and even though the chemicals contaminants might be low such as chlorides and alike the magnesium and calcium could be high so you could have no problem with the exception of scaling and we've seen that with failed heat exchangers that got sent to us photographs from city water everything need to be good with the exception that they had hard water so yeah the scaling minerals are still in there but I guess my point is that for you to check for just chlorides at a job site probably you're gonna have to send it like they showed earlier to a lab that has the equipment to do that unless you're going to invest in that learn how to use it learn how to calibrate it but yeah just to break the chloride level out of your water unless you get a report from you know the city that tested that you know the meters I showed you today aren't going to tell you what the chloride level is so that's a specific number that you want to know you're going to have to have that tested for that all right so I just this shows kind of how our cart works so you can just done if you have valves like this we can put it in one side of the valve have an isolation valve between the fill and the purge and just put it in there and until you're sure that you've got you know again check the tds meter on the top of our card going in check the tds of that water that's coming out the other side and when it gets to the same tes you know that you've pushed all the old water out that you've got it completely filled with the water that's gone through the hydrilla fill cart there and got the tds pulled down bob if you want to advance just keep going on this there's some end of the two or three questions came in that are related to pH and I'll ask I'll recite the question just so that we can answer about this to some degree one question is do I have an issue with using reclaimed water from a hydraulic system and I'm assuming like rain water or something that got collected from you know perhaps roof runoff or what-have-you another question was related to this slide would be my natural water in my area has a pH somewhere in that five range which is pretty acidic what is it is it good for my stainless steel boiler well the answer to that question is in both those cases in the case obviously when you got water that skin pulled out of your municipal supply or out of your ground it's got pH 5 which isn't untypical especially up in mountain areas that by itself is it is a problem for sure in an open system low pH if you if you collect rain reclaimed rain makes a in a rain barrel or some other it also just like the raindrops themselves is going to have a pH somewhere in at five and a half range and if you had pH of five or five and a half in a closed hydronic system for any sustained length of time that's pretty aggressive and it would cause problem not only on your stainless steel heat exchanger it would first cause a problem on your less strong metals such as your irons and your steels and your copper before stainless steel so that stainless is the least of your your concerns but what happens in a closed hydronic system is different than what might happen what happens in an open system if you have low pH and here's an example so let's say you have low pH to begin with say coming out of your demineralize er or reclaimed rainwater that you got put into your system however to start it off as low it's temporary because what happens in this hydronic system is that you see as in as in the rain barrel example the water h2o it reacts with carbon dioxide and it creates this thing called h2 co3 which is carbonic acid and the carbonic acid dissociates to just two bicarbonate and and hydrogen and those positive charges on the hydrogen remember the definition of pH is the increase in hydrogen ionic activity versus hydroxide that causes your your pH to drop that's what's that's what's happening with rain as an example however in a boiler what happens and I'll skip to all the equations here but basically when you heat up carbonic acid it reacts with h2o in oxygen and heat creating a carbonic acid and it basically increases into second when your hydroxide so your pH then starts to as a result of driving off hydrogen it starts to increase your pH back not only into six or seven but as we indicated typically around eight is cited in most systems and the hot there's a lot of factors but then the hotter your system is the quicker it gets a pH level of like a neutral eight so the answer to the question should I be concerned about that low pH in my in my hydronic system typically is no because over time that pH is going to come up into that kind of safe zone that all metals like that we call it the happy zone of say seven point five to eight but the key is the test that you know you don't assume that it's going to get there go back in a week if you have to intestine make sure that it did come up and if it didn't enough to you know meet the spec of the boiler then you can't put a booster in there but from our experience and what mark says and the German standard everything else we've read and people we've talked to annex our own test we put some in Kevin's house out there and we've been watching and monitoring that we put the you know through the hydrophilic filled that we watched what how his waters change over the past couple of I guess years now and we know that to be to be true so right and you can if you if you don't want to wait around and wait for it naturally they come up to say you say you want eight you know different manufacturers have cage boosters I think you showed one PA up Romario Sentinel and so you can you can force it that way and the manufacturer will give you the ratio how much you want to put in to get into the certain ph and then then then you're good it's going to already be at that level that it ultimately it would get to and so there's ways of doing that if you want to make sure your pH is going to get to the range that you quickly yeah exactly hopefully everybody got some some good information out of this and any other questions or anything mark before we wrap it up here there was one that maybe someone know is it I'm not quite sure the question maybe we can end the webinar in this and it might need a bit out of trivia the question is why would water from warm water pipes freeze quicker than water from cold water pipes you know and I've seen that debated both ways and I don't I never know that I have an opinion I've heard that if you drive some of the gases out of there you know there's less insulation between the water and the wall of the pipe and it freezes quicker I've heard that with ice cubes you know use hot water in your ice cream use a freeze not only quicker but cleaner because you've taken some of those dissolved gases out of there by heating it so I don't know if that's a wise Taylor you know I guess you know you could find two engineers that could argue that to the end of time as far as which is right but uh do you have an opinion I kind of well it just came in and I hadn't thought about it maybe one of the readers that are more chemically minded but I'm thinking that if you took two glasses of water and one glass you put salt in it and you put them both in the freezer which one's going to freeze first well yeah definitely the salt is going to you know slow it down okay the one without salt is going to freeze first right that's not because the other one has minerals dissolved in it called salt in this case when you're looking at water going in a house say into a into a it splits off and one goes into your hot water heater and the other one goes out to your cold water pipes the difference between the two is your hot water heater if there's ink if there's any it's going to want to do what it's going to want to they could pull some calcium magnesium out a solution just by creating just a little bit of scale buildup and as a result your conductivity is going to go down and so relatively speaking your water cold water would have a high higher mineral content and as a result would be lasted freeze assuming they both cool down to the same temperature and you then you tested that freeze point that's my theory but someone else might be able to give a better answer well there he has the classic example of an opinion from an engineer and a plumber let's take a little deeper thought process there but again I'm not convinced one way or another that and how hot of water and how much quicker and you know how do you know that you know go crazy with that question but yeah a fun way to end up and you know we'll get through the questions that came in today I see a couple of my my I opened up my question box here but thanks again everybody and we'll see you guys soon