Carl Rogers and Gloria Counselling 1965 Full Session CAPTIONED

(Music playing.) Psychotherapy is such a personal and private process that it is a mystery to most people who have never gone through it. The following series is a unique effort that allows us to sit in on what is ordinarily a very private therapeutic experience. An actual patient was courageous enough and considerate enough to allow herself to be photographed while actually engaged in therapy with three different therapists. Thus we are allowed the privilege of seeing and feeling what really transpires. A film series like this, in which three therapists distinguished by their different orientations share their therapeutic endeavors, has never been made before. We therefore wish to express our gratitude to Gloria the patient and to her therapists for allowing us to share in their therapeutic adventure. This series will be divided into three separate films. In the first film, we see Dr. Carl Rogers, founder of client-centered therapy, interviewing Gloria. In film number two, Dr. Friedrich Perls, founder of gestalt therapy, is working with her. And in film number three, Dr. Albert Ellis, found of rational emotive therapy, is our therapist. Each therapist will first describe his system of therapy briefly. He will then demonstrate his work with Gloria and then he will comment briefly on his work. Now here is Dr. Carl Rogers. From my own years of therapeutic experience I have come to feel that if I can create the proper climate, the proper relationship, the proper conditions, a process of therapeutic movement will almost inevitably occur in my client. You might ask what is this climate? What are these conditions? Will they exist in the interview with the woman I'm about to talk with whom I have never seen before? Well, let me try to describe very briefly what these conditions are as I see them. First of all, one question is can I be real in the relationship? This has come to have an increasing amount of importance to me over the years. I feel that genuineness is another way of describing the quality I would like to have. I like the term congruence, by which I mean that what I'm experiencing inside is present in my awareness and comes out through my communication. In a sense, when I have this quality I'm all in one piece in the relationship. Here's another word that describes it for me. I feel that in the relationship I would like to have a transparency. I would be quite willing for my client to see all the way through me and that there would be nothing hidden. And when I'm real in this fashion that I'm trying to describe then I know that my own feelings will often bubble up into awareness and be expressed but be expressed in ways that won't impose themselves on my client. Then the second question I would have is will I find myself praising this person, caring for this person? I certainly don't want to pretend a caring that I don't feel. In fact, if I dislike my client persistently I feel it's better that I should express it. But I know that the process of therapy is much more likely to occur and constructive change is much more likely if I feel a real, spontaneous prizing of this individual with whom I'm working. A prizing of this person as a separate individual. You can call that quality acceptance. You can call it caring. You can call it a non-possessive love, if you wish. I think any of those terms tend to describe it. I know that the relationship will prove more constructive if it's present. And then the third quality, will I be able to understand the inner world of this individual, from the inside. Will I be able to see it through her eyes? Will be able to be sufficiently sensitive to move around inside the world of her feelings so that I know what it feels like to be her so that I can sense not only the surface meanings but some of the meanings that lie somewhat underneath the surface? I know that if I can let myself sensitively and accurately enter into her world of experience then change and therapeutic movement are much more likely. Well, suppose I am fortunate and that I do experience some of these attitudes in the relationship, what then? Well, then a variety of things are likely to happen. Both from my clinical experience and from our research investigations, we find that if attitudes of the sort that I've described are present then quite a number of things will happen. She'll explore some of her feelings and attitudes more deeply. She's likely to discover some hidden aspects of herself that she wasn't aware of previously. Feeling herself prized by me, it's quite possible she'll come to prize herself more. Feeling that some of her meanings are understood by me then she can more readily perhaps listen to herself. Listen to what's going on within her own experience. Listen to some of the meanings she hasn't been able to catch before. And perhaps if she senses a realness in me, she'll be able to be a little more real within herself. I suspect there will be a change in the manner of her expression. At least this has been my experience in other instances. From being rather remote from her experiencing, remote from what's going on within her, it's possible that she'll move toward more immediacy of experiencing. That she will be able to sense and express what's going on in her in the immediate moment. From being disapproving of herself, it's quite possible she will move toward a greater degree of acceptance of herself. From somewhat of a fear of relating, she may move toward being able to relate more directly and to encounter me more directly. From construing life in somewhat rigid, black and white patterns, she may move toward more tentative ways of construing her experience and of seeing the meanings in it. From a locus of evaluation which is outside of herself, it's quite possible she will move toward recognizing a greater capacity within herself for making judgments and drawing conclusions. So those are some of the changes that we. If I have any success in creating the kind of conditions that I've described initially then we may be able to see some of these changes in this client even though I know in advance that our contact is going to be very brief. Good morning. Hello, Dr. I'm Dr. Rogers. You must be Gloria. Yes, I am. Won't you have this chair? Well now, we have half an hour together and I really don't know what we'll be able to make of it but I hope we can make something of it. I'll be glad to know whatever concerns you. Well, right now I'm nervous but I feel more comfortable with the way you're talking in a low voice and I don't feel like you'll be so harsh on me but. I hear the tremor in your voice. Well, the main thing I want to talk to you about is I'm just newly divorced and I had gone in therapy before and I felt comfortable when I left and all of a sudden now the biggest change is adjusting to my single life. Mmm hmm. And one of the things that bother me the most is especially men and having men to the house and how it affects the children and. Mmm hmm. The biggest thing I want, the thing that keeps coming to my mind I want to tell you about is I have a daughter, nine, who at one time I felt had a lot of emotional problems. I wish I could stop shaking. (Chuckling.) And I'm real conscious of things affecting her. I don't want her to get upset. I don't want to shock her. I want so bad for her to accept me. And we're real open with each other, especially about sex. And the other day she saw a girl that was single but pregnant and she asked me all about it. Can girls get pregnant if they're single? And the conversation was fine and I wasn't un-at-ease at all with her until she asked me if I'd ever made love to a man since I've left her daddy and I lied to her. And ever since that it keeps coming up to my mind because I feel so guilty lying to her cause I never lie and I want her to trust me. Mmm hmm. And I almost want an answer from you. I want you to tell me if it will affect her wrong if I told her the truth or what. Mmm hmm. And it's this concern about her and the fact that this open relationship that has existed between you now you feel is kind of damaged? Yes, I feel like I have to be on guard about that because I remember when I was a little girl. When I first found out my mother and father made love, it was dirty and terrible and I didn't like her anymore for a while. Mmm hmm. And I don't want to lie to Pammy either and I don't know. And I sure wish I could give you the answer as to what you should tell her. I was afraid you were gonna say that. Cause what you really want is an answer. I want to especially know if it would affect her if I was completely honest and open with her or if it would affect her because I lied. I feel like it's bound to make a strain because I lied to her. Mmm hmm. You sort of feel she'll suspect that or she will know something's not quite right in the relationship. I feel that inside she'll distrust me, yes. Mmm hmm. And also I thought, well, gee, what about when she gets a little older and she finds herself in touchy situations, she probably wouldn't want to admit it to me cause she thinks I'm so good and so sweet. Mmm hmm. And yet I'm afraid she could think I'm really a devil. And I want so bad for her to accept me. And I don't know how much a nine-year-old can take. And really both alternatives concern you. That she might think you're too good or better than you really are. Yes. And she might think that you're worse than you are. Not worse than I am. I don't know if she can accept me the way I am. I think I paint a picture that I'm all sweet and motherly and I'm a little ashamed of my shady side too. Mmm hmm. I see. It really cuts a little deeper. If she really knew you would she, could she accept you? This is what I don't know, yeah. I don't want her to turn away from me. And I don't even know how I feel about it because there are times when I feel so guilty, like when I have a man over. I even try to make a special set-up so that if I were ever alone with him, the children would never catch me and that sort of thing. Mmm hmm. Cause I'm real leery about it. Mmm hmm. And yet I also know I have these desires. So it's quite clear it isn't only her problem or the relationship with her, it's in you as well. And my guilt, yeah. I feel guilty so much. What can I accept myself as doing? Yes, yes. And you realize that you set up subterfuges so as to make sure that you're not caught or something. You realize that you are acting from guilt, is that it? Yes. I don't like the way. I would like to feel comfortable with whatever I do. If I choose not to tell Pammy the truth, to feel comfortable that she can't handle it and I don't. I want to be honest and yet I feel there are some areas that I don't even accept. Mmm hmm. And if you can't accept them in yourself, how could you possibly be comfortable in telling them to her? Right. And yet as you say we do have these desires and you do have your feelings but you don't feel good about them. Right. I have a feeling you're just gonna sit there and let me stew on it and I want more. I want you to help me get rid of my guilt feeling. If I can get rid of my guilt feeling about lying or going to bed with a single man, any of that, just so I can feel more comfortable. Mmm hmm. And I guess I'd like to say, no, I don't want to let you just stew in your feelings but on the other hand I also feel that this is the kind of very private thing that I couldn't possibly answer for you but I sure as anything will try to help you work toward your own answer. I don't know if that makes any sense to you but I mean it. Well, I appreciate you saying that. You sound like you mean it. But I don't know where to go. I don't begin to know where to go. I thought that I'd pretty well worked over most of my guilt and now that this is coming up I'm disappointed in myself. Mmm hmm. I really am. I like it when I feel that no matter what I do, even if it's against my own morals or my upbringing, that I can still feel good about me and now I don't. There's a girl at work who sort of mothers me and I think she thinks I'm all sweet and I sure don't want to show my more ornery devilish side with her. I want to be sweet and it's so hard for me. This all seems so new again and it's so disappointing. Yeah, I get the disappointment but here a lot of these things you thought you'd worked through and now the guilt and a feeling that only a part of you is acceptable to anybody else. Yes. That keeps coming out. I guess I do catch the real deep puzzlement that you feel as to what the hell shall I do, what can I do? Yes and you know what I can find, Dr., is that everything I start to do, impulse that seems natural to tell Pammy or go out on a date or something, I'm comfortable until I think how I was affected as a child and the minute that comes up then I'm all haywire. Mmm hmm. I want to be a good mother so bad and I feel like I am a good mother but then there's those little exceptions like my guilt with working. I want to work and it's so fun having extra money. I like to work nights. The minute I think I'm not being real good to the children or giving them enough time then I start feeling guilty again. Then that's when it's a, what do they call it, a double bind. That's just what it feels like. I want to do this and it feels right but after all I'm not being a good mother and I want to be both. Mmm hmm. I'm becoming more and more aware of what a perfectionist I am. That's what it seems like. I want to be so perfect. Either I want to become perfect in my standards or not have that need anymore. Or I guess I hear it a little differently that what you want is to seem perfect. It's a matter of great importance to you to be a good mother and you want to seem to be a good mother even if some of your actual feelings differ from that. Does that touch it or not? Yeah, I don't feel like I'm saying that, no. That isn't what I feel, really. I want to approve of me always but my actions won't let me. I want to approve of me. I think that. I realize you, all right, but let me cause I'd like to understand that. You sound as though your actions are kind of outside of you. You want to approve of you but what you do somehow won't let you approve of yourself. Right. Like I feel that I could approve of myself regarding, for example, my sex life, this is the big thing. Mmm hmm. If I really fell in love with a man and I respected him and I adored him, I don't think I'd feel so guilty going to bed with him and I don't think I'd have to make up any excuses to the children because they could see my natural caring for him. Mmm hmm. But when I have the physical desire and I'll say, oh, why not and I want to anyway then I feel guilty afterwards. I hate facing the kids, I don't like looking at myself and I rarely enjoy it. Mmm hmm. And this is what I mean. If the circumstances would be different I don't think I'd feel so guilty because I'd feel right about it. Yeah, I guess I hear you saying if what I was doing when I went to bed with a man was really genuine and full of love and respect and so on, I wouldn't feel guilty in relation to Pam. I really would be comfortable about the situation. That's how I feel, yes. And I know that sounds like I want a perfect situation but that is how I feel. And in the meantime I can't stop these desires. I have tried that also. I've tried saying, OK, I don't like myself when I do that so I won't do it anymore. But then I resent the children. I think why should they stop me from doing what I want and it's really not that bad. Mmm hmm. But I guess I heard you saying too that it isn't only the children, that you don't like it as well when it really isn't right. Right, I'm sure that's, I know that's it, probably even more so than I'm aware of. But I only notice it so much when I pick it up in the children then I can also notice it in myself. Mmm hmm. And somehow sometimes you kind of feel like blaming them for the feelings you have. Why should they cut you off from a normal sex life? Well, a sex life I could say, not normal because there is something about me that says that's not very healthy to just go into sex because you feel physically attractive or something or a physical need. Mmm hmm. So something about it tells me that's not quite right anyway. Mmm hmm. But you feel really that at times you're acting in ways that are not in accord with your own inner standards. Right, right. But then we're also saying a minute ago that you feel you can't help that. I wish I could, that's it, and I can't. Now I feel like I can't control myself as well as I could have before for a specific reason. Now I can't. I just let go and there's too many things I do wrong that I have to feel guilty for and I sure don't like that. I want you very much to give me a direct answer and I'm going to ask it and I don't expect a direct answer but I want to know do you feel that, to me the most important thing is to be open and honest and if I can be open and honest with my children, do you feel that it could harm them if, for example, I could say to Pammy I felt bad lying to you, Pammy, and I want to tell you the truth now. And if I tell her the truth and she's shocked at me and she's upset, that that could bother her more? In other words, I want to get rid of my guilt and that will help me but I don't want to put them on her. That's right. Do you feel that that could hurt her? I sense that you're concerned. I'm sure this will sound evasive to you but it seems to me that perhaps the person you're not being fully honest with is you. Because I was very much struck by the fact that you were saying if I feel all right about what I have done, whether it's going to bed with a man or what, if I really feel all right about it then I don't have any concern about what I would tell Pam or my relationship with her. Right, all right. Now I hear what you're saying but I want to work on accepting you then. I want to work on feeling all right about it. But that makes sense that that will come natural and then I won't have to worry about Pammy. Mmm hmm. But when things do seem so wrong for me and I have an impulse to do them, how can I accept that? What ou'd like to do is to feel more accepting toward yourself when you do things that you feel are wrong, is that right? Right. Sounds like a tough assignment. Yeah, I feel like you're gonna say now why do you think they're wrong and I have mixed feelings there too. Mmm hmm. Through therapy I'll say now, look, I know this is natural. Women feel it. Sure we don't talk about it a lot socially but all woman feel it and it's very natural. I've had sex for the last eleven years, I'm of course going to want it but I still think it's wrong unless you're really truly in love with a man. Mmm hmm. And my body doesn't seem to agree. And so I don't know how to accept it. Sounds like a triangle to me, doesn't it? You feel that I or therapists in general or other people say it's all right, it's all right, it's natural enough, go ahead. And I guess you feel your body sort of lines up on that side of the picture. But something in you says that I don't like it that way, not unless it's really right. Right. (Sigh.) Well, I have a hopeless feeling. Mmm hmm. These are all the things I sort of feel myself and I feel, OK, now what? Mmm hmm. This is the conflict and it's just insoluble and therefore it's hopeless. And here you look to me and I don't seem to give you any help. Right. I really know you can't answer it for me and I have to figure it out myself but I want you to guide me or show me where to start so it won't look so hopeless. Mmm hmm. I know I can keep living with this conflict and I know eventually things would work out but I'd like feeling more comfortable with the way I live. Mmm hmm. And I'm not. And I think I might ask what is it you wish I would say to you? I wish you would say to me to be honest and take the risk that Pammy's going to accept me. And I also have a feeling if I could really risk it with Pammy of all people that I'd be able to say here's this little kid that can accept me and I'm really not that bad. If she really knows what a demon I am and still loves me and accepts me, it seems like it would help me to accept me more, like it's really not that bad. Mmm hmm. I want you to say to go ahead and be honest but I don't want the responsibility that it would upset her. I see. That's where I don't want to take responsibility. You know very well what you'd like to do in the relationship. You would like to be yourself and you'd like to have her know that you're not perfect and do things that maybe even she wouldn't approve of and that you disapprove of to some degree yourself but that somehow she would love you and accept you as an imperfect person. Well, yes. I wonder if my mother had been more open with me maybe I wouldn't have had such a narrow attitude about sex. If I would have thought that she could be pretty sexy and ornery and devilish too that I wouldn't look at her as being such a sweet mother, that she could also be the other side. But she didn't talk about that. Mmm hmm. And maybe that's where I got my picture, I don't know. But I want Pammy to see me as a full woman but also accept me. Mmm hmm. You don't sound so uncertain. I don't? What do you mean? What I mean is you've been sitting there telling me just what you would like to do in that relationship with Pam. I would but I don't want to quite take the risk of doing it unless the authority tells me. I understand. I guess one thing that I feel very keenly is it's an awfully risky thing to live. You'd be taking a chance on your relationship with her. You'd be taking a chance on letting her know who you are really. Yeah, but then if I don't take the chance, if I feel loved and accepted by her, I'm never gonna feel good about it anyway. Mmm hmm. If her love and acceptance of you is based on a false picture of you, what the hell is the good of that? Is that what you're saying? Yes, that's what I mean, yes. But I also feel there's a lot of responsibility with being a mother. I don't want to feel like I've caused any big traumas in the children. I don't like all that responsibility. I mean that's it, I don't like it feeling it could be my fault. Mmm hmm. I guess that's what I meant when I said life is risky. To take the responsibility for being the person you would like to be with her is a hell of a responsibility. It is. A very frightening one. And you know what? I look at it two ways. I like to see myself as being so honest with the kids and really being proud of myself, though, that no matter what I told them or no matter how bad they might think I was, I was honest. Mmm hmm. And down deep it's gonna be a much more wholesome relationship. Mmm hmm. And yet, you know, I get jealous of when they're with their daddy. I feel he's more flip. He's not quite as real. He's not quite as honest. But nevertheless they see a sweet picture of their dad. He's all goodness and light and I'm envious of that too. I want them to see me just as sweet as they see him and yet I know he's not quite as real with them. Mmm hmm. So it seems like I've got to swap the one for the other. Mmm hmm. And I know this is really what I want the most but I miss some of that glory. Yeah. You sort of feel I want them to have just as nice a picture of me as they have of their dad and if his is a little phony than maybe mine will have to be too. Well, maybe that's putting it a little too strongly. But that's close. That is what I mean. Mmm hmm. Well, I know she can't have that neat a picture of me if I were honest. (Chuckling.) Besides that I do feel I'm a little more ornery than their dad anyway so I'm likely to do more things that they disapprove of. Sounds like you really find it quite hard to believe that they would really love you if they knew you. That's right. You know, that's exactly it. Before therapy I would have definitely chosen the other area. I'm going to get respect from men no matter what, even if I have to lie. I see. Well, right now I know that's not true. Mmm hmm. And I'm not positive they'll truly accept me. Mmm hmm. Something tells me they will. I know they will but I'm not positive. I want reassurance. Mmm hmm. I keep wanting these things. Now you're in kind of a no man's land of probably shifting from one point of view toward them to another but, boy, you'd sure like somebody to say that's right, you go ahead and do it. Yes, that's why I get encouraged when I read in a book from somebody I respect and admire that this is the right thing. No matter what, honesty will win out. Well, then that keeps giving me confidence. By gosh, I'm right. Mmm hmm. It's so damn hard to really choose something on your own, isn't it? Which makes me feel very immature. I don't like this in me. I wish I were grown up enough or mature enough to make my decisions and stick by them but I need somebody to help me on, somebody to push me. Mmm hmm. So you kind of reproach yourself for that I guess and feel, why, if I was anybody or if I was grown up I'd be mature enough to decide things like this for myself. Right, right. And take more risks. I wish I'd take more risks. Mmm hmm. I wish that I could just go ahead and be this and say however the children grow up I've done my best. I didn't have to constantly have this conflict. And I'd like there just to say no matter what you ask me, kids, at least I told you the truth. You may not have liked it but it's been the truth. That somehow I can admire. Mmm hmm. I disrespect people that lie. I hate it. So you see what a double bind I am in. I hate myself if I'm bad but I also hate myself if I lie. So it's accepting, I want to become more accepting. I guess judging from your tone of voice, you sound as though you hate yourself more when you lie than you do in terms of things you disapprove of in your behavior. I do, I do. Because this has really bothered me. This happened with Pammy about a month ago and it keeps coming to my mind. I don't know whether to go back and talk to her about it or wait. She may have even forgotten what she asked me. The point is you haven't forgotten. I haven't, no, I haven't. And I'd like to at least be able to tell her that I remember lying and I'm sorry I lied and it's been driving me bugs because I did. I don't know. I feel like now that's solved and I didn't even solve a thing but I feel relieved. Mmm hmm. I do feel like you've been saying to me, you're not giving me advice but I feel like you're saying you really want to, you know what pattern and you want to follow, Gloria, and go ahead and follow it. I sort of feel a backing up from you. I guess the way I sense it is you've been telling me that you know what you want to do and, yes, I do believe in backing up people in what they want to do. It's just a little different slant than the way it seems to you. Are you telling me? But you see, one thing that concerns me is it's no damn good you're doing something that you haven't really chosen to do and that's why I'm trying to help you find out what your own inner choices are. But then there's also a conflict there because I'm not really positive what I want to do. The lying part, yes, but I'm not positive what I want to do when I go against myself. Like when I bring a man to the house, I'm not sure I want to do that. If I feel guilty afterwards I must not have really wanted to. Mmm hmm. I understand what you say. I'm not sure which words you used but you don't like yourself or you don't approve of it when you do something against yourself. Yes. Mmm hmm. You know, this is so different. Now this kind of thing that we're talking about now, it isn't just knowing whether you want to do something or not. If I want to go to work in the morning or I don't want to go to work, that's easy. But when I find myself doing something I don't feel comfortable with, I automatically say if you're not comfortable, Gloria, it's not right, something's wrong. Mmm hmm. All right, now what I want to ask you is how can I know which is the strongest? Because I do it, does that mean that's the strongest? And yet if I disapprove, that's just part of the thing that's got to go along with it? See, it sounds like you're. I'm picking up a contradiction. I'm not following. It sounds like you're feeling a contradiction in yourself too. What I heard you saying in part is the way you like it is when you feel really comfortable about what you're doing. Yes, and I have at times when I've made a decision. Mmm hmm. Now that seems right. That seems perfectly right. No conflict. But then there are times I do things that I feel uncomfortable with so there is a conflict there. Mmm hmm. It's not the same at all. So what I'm saying is how do I really know when I'm following my true feelings if I have conflicts afterwards or guilt afterwards? I see, because in the moment it may seem like your true feelings. Yes. Mmm hmm. Like if I'm starting to do it, OK. Mmm hmm. So that really is tough when if you feel comfortable in the moment about it but then after it don't feel at all comfortable, which course of action was really the one you should have followed? You know the most outstanding thing? I don't know if you're following me when I say about this conflict. The one thing I know is I've wanted, for example, to leave my husband for quite a few years. I never did it. I kept thinking how nice it would be or how scary it would be but I never did it. Mmm hmm. And all of a sudden when I did, it felt right. I didn't feel mean toward him. I just knew this is what I had to do. That's when I know I'm following myself, I'm following my feelings completely. I had no conflict there. Some unhappy things came from it but I still had no conflict. That to me is when I'm following my feelings. And in everyday life the small little decisions, the small little things to do don't come out that clear at all. So many conflicts come with them. Mmm hmm. That's right. Is this natural? Although you're saying. I suspect it is. But you're saying too that you know perfectly well a feeling within yourself that occurs when you're really doing something that's right for you. I do. Hmm hmm. I do and I miss that feeling other times and it's right away a clue to me. Mmm hmm. You can really listen to yourself sometimes and realize, oh no, this isn't the right feeling, this isn't the way I would feel if I was doing what I really wanted to do. But yet many times I'll go along and do it anyway and say, oh well, I'm in the situation now, I'll just remember next time. Mmm hmm. I mention this word a lot in therapy and most therapists grin at me or giggle or something when I say utopia but when I do follow a feeling and I feel this good feeling inside of me, that's sort of utopia. That's what I mean. That's the way I like to feel whether it's a bad thing or a good thing but I feel right about me. Mmm hmm. This is what I want to accomplish. I sense that in those utopian moments you really feel kind of whole, you feel all in one piece. Yes. Mmm hmm. Yeah, it gives me a choked-up feeling when you say that because I don't get that as often as I'd like. Mmm hmm. I like that whole feeling. That's real precious to me. I expect none of us get it as often as we'd like but I really do understand that. Mmm hmm. That really does touch you, didn't it? Yeah, and you know what else I was just thinking? I feel dumb saying it. All of a sudden as I'm talking I thought, gee, how nice I can talk to you and I want you to approve of me and I respect you but I miss that my father couldn't talk to me like you are. Mmm hmm. I'd like to say, gee, I'd like you for my father. Mmm hmm. I don't even know why that came to me. You look to me like a pretty nice daughter. But you really do miss the fact that you couldn't be open with your own dad. Yeah, I couldn't be open but I want to blame it on him. I think I'm more open than he'd allow me. He would never listen to me talk like you are. Mmm hmm. And not disapprove and not lower me down. Yeah, I thought of this the other day. Why do I always have to be so perfect? I know why. He always wanted me to be perfect. I always had to better. Mmm hmm. And, yeah, I missed that. You're just trying like hell to be the girl he wants you to be. Yet at the same time rebelling. That's right. I almost gloated writing him a letter the other day and telling him I'm a waitress, which I expect him to disapprove of. I go out at night and I almost gloated. Hitting him back like now how do you like me? Uh huh. And yet I literally want acceptance and love from him. I know he loves me. So you slap at him and say this is what I am now, see? Yeah. You raised me. How do you like it? But you know what I think I want him to say? I knew this was you all along, honey, and I really love you. Mmm hmm. And, yes, you really feel badly that you think there's very little chance he'll say that. No, he won't. He doesn't hear. I went back home to him about two years ago. Really did want to let him know I loved him although I've been afraid of him. He doesn't hear me. He just keeps saying things like, honey, you know I love you, you know I've always loved you, and he doesn't hear. He's never really known you and loved you and this somehow is what brings the tears inside. I don't know what it is. When I talk about it it feels more flip. If I just sit still a minute it feels like a great big hurt down there that I feel cheated. Mmm hmm. It's much easier to be a little flip because then you don't feel that big lump inside of hurt. Uh huh. And again, that's a hopeless situation. I tried working on it and I feel it's something I have to accept. My father just isn't the type of man I'd really like. I'd like somebody more understanding and caring. Mmm hmm. He cares but not in the way that, he wouldn't cooperate or communicate. Mmm hmm. If he'll note that I'm permanently cheated. Mmm hmm. That's why I like substitutes. I like talking to you and I like men that I can respect, doctors. I keep sort of maybe underneath feeling like we're real close and it's sort of like a substitute father. I don't feel that's pretending. Well, you're not really my father. No, I meant about the real close business. Well, see, I sort of feel that's pretending too because I can't expect you to feel very close to me. You don't know me that well. All I can do is what I am feeling and that is I feel close to you in this moment. In spite of feeling initially the artificiality of the situation and particularly the hot lights, I very quickly became oblivious to the outside situation and I think that Gloria did too. In many ways I am glad that she kept pushing me for an answer to her very personal questions about her sex life and her relationship to her daughter. I say I'm glad of this because as the relationship developed it became I think completely clear to her as well as to me that she was seeking something a good deal deeper than that. Incidentally, I'd like to pay my tribute to her deep honesty in being willing to talk about herself so freely. Although every individual is entirely unique and in this respect I was definitely unprepared for and sometimes surprised by the material she brought up, still in another sense this was very typical of my experiences in therapy. When I'm able really to let myself enter into a relationship, and I feel that this was true in this instance, then I find myself not only being increasingly moved by being in touch with the inner world of my client but I find myself bringing out of my own inner experience statements which seem to have no connection with what's going on but which usually prove to have a very significant relationship to what the client is experiencing. I felt there were one or two incidents of this kind in this brief interview. I was genuinely moved. I probably showed it by the fact that she told me near the end of the contact that she saw me as the father she would like to have. My reply was also a thoroughly spontaneous one that she seemed to me like a pretty nice daughter. I guess I feel that we're only playing with the real world of relationships when we talk about such an experience in terms of transference and counter-transference. I feel quite deeply about that. I want to say, yes, we can put this experience into some such highly intellectualized framework but when we do that it completely misses the point of the very immediate I-thou quality of the relationship at such moments. I felt that Gloria and I really encountered each other and that in some small but I believe lasting way we were each of us enriched by the experience. I'm saying these things almost immediately after the conclusion of the interview, and as is characteristic of me, there are not more than one or two statements or incidents which I recall from the interview. I simply know that I was very much present in the relationship. That I lived it in the moment of its occurrence. And I realize that after a time I may begin to remember it too. But at the present time I really have a very non-specific memory of the whole interview. I'll try to look at it, though, a little bit more from an intellectual rather than a strictly feeling point of view. Gloria showed what I have come to feel are characteristic elements of therapeutic movement. In the first part of the interview she was talking about her feelings and they were past feelings. She was talking about aspects of her behavior and of herself as if she didn't quite own them. She was looking outside herself for a center or locus of evaluation, some source of authority. She saw some of the things she was talking about in fairly black and white fashion. By the end of the interview she was experiencing her feelings in the immediate moment. Not only as evidenced by her tears but by her ability to express very directly and with immediacy her feelings toward me. She was also much more aware of her ability to make her own judgments and choices. I guess put in terms that have become somewhat commonplace you could say that she moved from the there and then of her life to the here and now of elements that she was discovering in herself and feelings which she was experiencing in the moment in her relationship with me. All in all, I feel good about the interview. I guess I feel good about myself in the interview. And like Gloria, I feel very real regret that the relationship cannot continue. (Music playing.)