Evenings with Sraddhalu part 4 Science subtitles in EnglishRussian

Welcome and greetings to everyone for the New Year We continue our series "Evenings with Sraddhalu" and Today I wanted to ask some questions Because we are quite familiar with the the greatness of Indian mathematicians, physicists, etc in the past. What is happening today in India? In our earlier discussions we had touched upon the arc of the development of the Indian civilization and particularly the struggle in re-emergence through the passage of colonization of the mind particularly It is here that we have to see this transition as a struggle not only to recover the innate temperament of the Indian mind, but also now to include in it certain aspect, certain aspects which have been more developed in the Western mind, in the European mind, but which in the Indian mind have not been so developed. And there's a kind of a fusion of these two faculties or these two extremes which is taking place. In between there is this struggle, which I have referred to like an indigestion I see a very interesting pattern in the last hundred years of some extraordinary Indian scientists like Jagadish Chandra Bose or Ramanujan Ramanujan has just recently become famous because of a movie But Bose is not yet famous, not yet known Though Sri Aurobindo mentions him in "The Life Divine" because of the nature of the work that he was doing. I'll just touch upon these two and their genius and Then we'll see what else So Ramanujan was exceptional in that, he was not just a genius, but there was a deep spiritual dimension which was the source of his genius He had these equations, which he would write out. And they were of such a high order that most advanced mathematicians of that time found it to be not only extraordinary, but incomprehensible. Many of them involved matching on one side something finite and on other side something which is infinite Sometimes infinite series which were one divided by something which is one divided by something plus one divided by something plus... And series of divisions of divisions of divisions infinitely which on this side becomes a finite number And so there's something very unusual there in what he was seeing. He was seeing the link between the infinite and the finite and Numerous kinds of relationships between these. And these were coming to him spontaneously. He would work them out in a slate and Often he would erase the sequence of the proof. Sometimes he would see the equation and just write it out without needing to prove it because it was obvious It's like if you say two plus two is equal to four and I say prove it You can't, you just say: well, it's obvious. How do you prove something like that? So he would see it and he would write it And when he was asked where he got these, he said, it was revealed to him by the goddess So his source of knowledge (and he was conscious of it) was higher, even spiritual insight which he was then transcribing. He was so familiar with the numbers that when he visited Thomas Hardy Who was in... In Hospital at the time and he mentioned. No, it was Thomas Hardy who visited him when he was in the hospital. He mentioned a taxi number which he had just seen and said: I don't find anything interesting in it Instantly Ramanujan said What was special about that. And it was the sum of two cubes which is itself a cube something like that. Then they are the smallest of such numbers. And it took Hardy a while to figure out that it was true. But this man could see a number and know it's full personality, know its relationship with other numbers: the way you know people and family, families as if they are living personalities, living beings. This dimension you do not see in today's mathematics. You do glimpse it in the ancient mathematics both in India and in Greece. That's where they were also referred to in Greece as schools of mystery. Because they saw in the numbers and the relations certain deep spiritual truths. This thing came up briefly with Ramanujan and then we don't see it again. And it's almost like when Nature is preparing for a new development in evolution, somebody has to appear who embodies the full potential of what has to be developed in one person, in one mind, in one consciousness. And because he integrates that, it sets the prototype for the rest to follow. Just as Leonardo da Vinci. Sri Aurobindo describes as the prototype for the modern Europe. Not only the formation of the mind but also the nature of the knowledge and the pursuit of knowledge and the form of that pursuit are all embodied in this one person. And a full integration of all the directions of Exploration in a single person. And that makes possible then the rest which takes a few centuries to develop. Even though they are in different fields. Would they still be considered Vibhutis? Yes. The Vibhuti is not only in a spiritual context, it is in any context where the human potential is pushed beyond the norm and touches something higher. I am very.. I've read a lot of Bose. So Please, please talk about this. This fascinates me. Yes So Bose on the other side was Grew up as trained in a conventional scientific way. But his mind was seeing this deeper reality and Sri Aurobindo refers to it in "The Life Divine" as the first entry into the domain of life inside matter. Now if you... in the vocabulary of Sri Surobindo we have matter, life and mind. And then all three are embedded within all three. So if you just take matter: within matter there is a domain which is material matter, living matter and then mental matter. And within each of those you would find further three gradations. So he is exploring the first level of the working of life inside matter, where you do not see it as living yet. You see it still as dead matter. But it already shows the potential of living matter. So an example is crystalline structure and the way a crystal grows. So he did these experiments a hundred years ago. There was no computers. There were no fancy measuring instruments. And he was able to measure the movement of a crystal as it grew. And map it on paper in a graph, match it against the movement of growth of a single plant Stem of let's say it was He did it with bamboos. Bamboo. Yeah. Yeah, because the one of the fastest. And he mapped the growth of both. And both follow this pattern: a burst - pause, burst - pause, burst - pause. As if life makes this effort and needs to rest to consolidate energy and then again push forward. And when you map the two, you cannot distinguish one from the other And another variation is: when there is a damage: you break the crystalline structure, you break the plant structure or you take living tissue muscular structure and You strain it until the fine fibers break. And you watch how they reheat Until they are normal again. And there is a particular pattern which is called hysteresis. You find the same pattern in the crystalline, in the plant and in the human tissue. And he put the graphs in front of the scientists and said: tell me which is which can you distinguish? And they couldn't... And all of this he did with equipment which was so basic: he shone a beam of light on a shiny piece of mirror or metal, which was tied to the tip of the plant So that as it grew, it tilted slightly and the beam of light projected on a wall at a distance and it moved Now if you look at the complexity and the kind of equipment he had: something so raw and Yet the complexity of data that he pulled out and such high precision and quality! It is exceptional. And at that time, of course, there are two issues: one He was too far ahead of his time. And the science of that period was too materialistic at least in in Europe. In India it had not come into its own... because it was still in the colonial domination And the second problem was (he was like in Ramanujan's case) he belonged to the colonized people. And the colonizers had an issue with the colonized doing something exceptional. So for both reasons effectively, his work was not allowed to come up and was lost practically. More recently his complete works have been republished, but I do not know if anybody who's taken up that work in the same way Sri Aurobindo describes all this This direction of pursuit of science. And the fascinating interaction he has with Pavitra-da which is recorded by From memory by Pavtra-da where he says, that modern science has only begun to explore the superficial layers of matter and It has to discover this life principle inside matter, and then the mind principle inside matter, and after that two more principles And that he gives... The vocabulary he uses is that science has moved from the using the five elements. The Earth's principle, water principle and the fire principle. It has barely touched the fire principle, which is triple and Then there are two more dimensions of it, which have to be emerged, which have to be discovered. And then he says something quite unusual The fact that an atom is like a solar system in structure would point to that third fire and After that science has to enter properly into the air principle and in the etheric principle, which is still a long way to go Now he is mapping out the passage of science in the vocabulary which modern science still does not recognize or value. And Sri Aurobindo had this knowledge even of science. And shows you that there's something extraordinary still to happen in the field of science, which the best of current science has not even begun to appreciate. And these two: Bose and Ramanujan were as if pointing to that possibility. When that begins? It will begin with those whose minds are tuned to that kind of thinking. And there again We find a comment of Sri Aurobindo, where he says to Pavitra-da: there is a difference between the mindset of a scientist and the mindset of an occultist, and then he says: there is no doubt, that one who embodies both of these will lead science to great breakthroughs. I'm paraphrasing, but that's the line for formulation. Something of this has to happen and it means on one side the mind which has rigor and on another side, a mind which has intuition. And rigor and intuition tend to be contradictory to each other. There's another interesting discussion where he compares the European mind and the Indian mind. And he says the European mind is very good in details, but when it has to look at things in their underlying and Uniting principle, it gets lost. And the Indian mind is very good in that aspect of the uniting common Principle, but when it has to handle detailed data, it gets lost. What I'm observing in the last let's say 20 years, especially with the rapid expansion of use of computers in India. India was one of the countries which had the most rapid use and acceptance of computers. And that itself was surprising to many at the time, because people, who were often uneducated Technically, would take to computers and go deep into programming. So there was something which they found to be unusual and natural ability to enter into that. So in these last 20 years particularly where this has become so widespread We see this happening inside India Where this analytic aspect going into details of data and then the intuitive aspect are being brought together. Any part of India more than another part? What we saw in the initial burst of computer programmers: many came from the south. So there are certain parts of India where that very highly Abstracted kind of thinking was more natural. Some of it had to do with culture, some of it had to do with heredity, some of it had to do with upbringing. But especially those in whom there was a tradition of abstract thought and philosophical pursuit. In those communities we find people taking to computers very quickly. There was there had to be a point, where eventually that thought process would turn upon Indic knowledge systems. So for example, when we came to... First there was the whole period of computers handling just data. Then it came to intelligence especially with natural language processing. Can you understand a statement? A sentence which is spoken? And immediately those who had that knowledge, because they also came from a traditional background, they turned to some indic knowledge systems We have Panini's grammar. I don't know if I've mentioned this here. Did we? No! Where the whole grammar structure of the Sanskrit language has been described in a series of about 4,000 sutras verses and They are to be applied like a computer program. So you can take any sentence in sanskrit, apply rule 1, then apply rule 2, apply rule 3, in sequence. And every time that a rule applies to it, if it overrides the previous, then you discard the previous and have the exception which applies. If you just go through like a program in sequence, you will have decoded the entire sentence into its meaning, analysis of the meaning and the structure of the meaning. And if a sentence is capable of multiple meanings, it will actually analyze it in all the meanings. Now this is there already. It's part of our traditional knowledge. These people, who had this knowledged entering the computer field, immediately made this connection. And the result was: they were a series of papers, which appeared from at first from NASA and then subsequently other spaces. Which made this statemen,t that the structure of the Sanskrit language Is inherently better suited for artificial intelligence than any of the other languages in the world today And the explanation is this: if you make a statement in English, The grammar structure and the structure of the meaning of the relationship of the words are separate. So you need to decode the sentence to get to the meaning structure. That's called a semantic net. Where the words and the links are mapped out. You need to decode. And from the semantic net if you want to formulate the words, you have to again go through a transition, translation process. But in the Sanskrit language and its grammar structure, the external grammar structure and the semantic net are Identical. So you can store the Sanskrit statement as it is and you have stored its intelligent content without effort. So these are, these are pointing to again possibilities, which have not been fully exploited yet. And so similar things were happening, where people are picking up elements of traditional knowledge systems and bringing them into this domain. But still with a mindset which was still the analytic, not yet to fully intuitive. And there's a kind of a struggle to bridge these two, which is happening. I believe though that this is Is still going to take a little longer for it to rectify fully. What we find let's say in the last 15 years a few examples of how it can lead to unusual possibilities: You know in India, it's the only country where the nuclear power technology has been developed without help from anybody. The United States got their nuclear technology from Germany. Russia got it from Germany. And then from the United States. France got it from the United States. China got it from Russia. Pakistan got it from China. India is the only country, which is cut off from this whole process and Had to develop from scratch the whole nuclear technology. The result was They actually developed technologies, which had no correspondence to others. So in the refining of uranium, for example, typically one goes through series of 1,000 steps Through gasification and all that stuff. In India they found a technique to do it in three steps. Of course, it is highly classified. It was always kept secret and all that So in the whole pursuit of the technology itself, there was a very different path which took place Which put it ahead of the others in many ways. One of them is the fast breeder reactor technology, which would create a nuclear reactor, which does not have the danger of going out of control as in Fukushima. And the fuel that is used up, creates more fuel, and it is self-sustaining cycle It creates as much fuel, as it uses up, because it breeds new fuel and so on Now this would have been one of the safest nuclear technologies, if it had been taken up early on. It was not taken up in the US, because it was useless for weapons' production. So they took the uranium U-235 238 root, Because you got as waste the material which could be used to make bombs. India didn't need bombs, they went the other way and began to explore in this direction But somewhere along the way the requirement for bombs and the current climate of thinking pushed for this as a prioritization So it shows that something unusual is there in the whole. And Mother's words about fusion and not fission? Unfortunately, there has not been enough work in that direction. But I do believe that when it when we take up that, it'll come up, it will happen very suddenly. There's the other thing was in the missile technologies India developed again without help from anybody else. The result was: at some point Russia approached India, because Russia was still politically closer. And they said: you have the best guidance system, we have the best propulsion system. If we can combine these two, it would make for the best missile in the world. And that's how they took up this project which is called the BrahMos missile. And the result of course is that over time this missile has become the most advanced. It's the most advanced supersonic missile in the world beating all other missiles For a cost which is almost 1/10 of any other missile. Now this shows you something unusual happening in the space of creativity in science Another example, which is more recent: is when India put a craft on Mars, in orbit in Mars. As a first step: the Mars orbiter... [mission] MOM It's the first time India put something in the direction of Mars. And the first time it went anywhere into deeper space. And got it in the first go. Now, it's a big deal, because all of the countries who have sent spacecrafts to Mars have failed, and failed, and failed, and failed, and then succeeded. And then again failed, and failed, and then again succeeded. It's a very difficult. There are complexities involved in the guidance, in the trajectory calculations and all that of a very high level. And getting it in the first go was a shock for the whole world, for the whole space community in the world. More interestingly When it actually did it, it did it for a cost which was almost 1/10 of equivalent launched from the US, with an equivalent spacecraft and cost of launch. And Narendra Modi made this observation, when it was actually complete, when it was completed. He said: The cost of travel to Mars was cheaper than the cost you pay to a rickshaw-puller per kilometer. And it was a shock, that you can actually develop such advanced technologies at such a low cost and with people who have never had before any such exposures. And it shows a certain potential, a certain capability, Creativity, as well as internal capacity. Are you seeing any signs of this in the West, this breakthrough with occult and...? In the West we see some examples, where in attempt to bridge the occult knowledge with technology is there. Some extraordinary examples are in the Theosophical movement Colonel Olcott and Annie Besant, who used the occult capacity to penetrate inside Compounds and elements and Describe their molecular, and then their atomic, and then subatomic structures purely with a cult site. Now, this kind of access was available to the Yogis in India in the past, which is how they described so many things and had whatever knowledge they needed. But you do not know if anybody currently who has applied that knowledge or that skill to Things, which have immediate application in science. These two were the first to do that 100 years ago again, and they came out with this book called "Occult chemistry", which actually anticipates the future developments in subatomic physics and describes with drawings, what was later discovered 30 50 60 years later. And again, it shows you a direction of exploration that is possible through this pursuit, which one day will have to be taken up, because how far can your physical instruments go? See, the problem with measuring subatomic particles or mapping them is in the very act of seeing them, you have to blast them with light or some radiation. And the thing, which you are blasting with, is so fragile that the radiation shakes it up or changes it. So as you go deeper into matter, the means to be able to perceive become less and less effective. The more you see with precision, the more violently you hit and change the very thing you're seeing Yeah, and if you see with less intensity, then you do not see the detail anymore The only way we can cross that barrier, which is a physical limit, is to find means of perception which are non-physical or even more subtle than the current physical Sri Aurobindo suggests, he points to the development of technology in this direction in the "Life Divine" where he says that, if you look at the evolution of any modern technology, let's say the telephone, you started with a wire, which linked. If I have to broaden the example more than even Sri Aurobindo mentions. You see, the earliest telephone is what children use. They hold two cups and a string in between. You're literally transmitting a physical vibration at a distance. The more sophisticated telephone replaces the physical vibration by an electric vibrations. So now the wires can go several kilometers Eventually you knock out the wire and you replace it by a beam, which is electromagnetic wave, so you have the radio and your mobile phone etc. And with that at the same time the device you're using is also growing smaller In fact today you have the world's smallest mobile phone, which is the size of the thumbnail Except your fingers are too fat to push buttons or the screen is too small for your eyes but the technology itself has shrunk to that size. And Sri Aurobindo points to this. He says that, if you notice the curve of development of technology, it's growing smaller, more rarefied, less material. And the sign of high technology is precisely where it becomes less material, less dense and almost approaches the pure mind transmission. So it's... we have actually come to that stage, where you can put something in your ear, which is a mobile phone It picks up your voice and it broadcasts. And at some point they're doing these experiments to connect it directly into the brain, not with the mobile phones, but with similar to means. Or, instead of a physical link even in the brain, to have a link which is non-physical. So the most advanced fighter planes the pilot puts on this headset, which is observing your brain. As your mind turns in thought awareness, Ok: left or right - It senses the shift in brain pattern and turns the plane left or right. So at first they tied it to the eyes, your eyeballs move, but even that you can get rid of. And you can directly sense the intention of the pilots mind. Now here comes something fascinating Your mind now has to learn to control itself. You can't think of something and have the plane go that way unintentionally, right? If you're scared of, what if there's a problem on the left, and your mind turns to look left Your plane turns left and you hit the problem. This condition is very similar to what happens in dream state You see a dog: what if the dog attacks me? And instantly that becomes the reality You see, the technology is coming to an edge, where it's blending with the mind so closely, that you will have to learn to master your mind in the same way as we learn to master your fingers to not keep punching your mobile phones all the time. A degree of self control from the senses shifting to the self control and self mastery of mind is becoming necessary And so be we are definitely on that edge where the inner, occult dimension and the more material merging in ways, that we could not have imagined. And that's where this possibility of greater breakthroughs will come. Directions of exploration in technology, which we cannot even imagine right now I'd like to go back to mr. Bose for a moment. Because his experiments with music and plants have always excited me. I remember reading one, where he played a certain type of very fast, almost rock-and-roll music we would call it today, on tomatoes. And they responded marvelously. And others had no response at all or, in fact, the negative respons. Yes. And this this work with sound and music on living plants. And that's touching the direction of the mind inside the life. You see, consider what is music? You play a pitch, any pitch, and you play another pitch after that. You feel it in harmony or not with the first pitch, and the first pitch could be any arbitrary free. Yes Yes. Is this in harmony with that or not? And the relationship of harmony is only the ratio of the frequency of the number. - Right. The whole scale is nothing but a series of ratios of numerical value. - In terms of cycles per second. Yes. Yes. You could start from any point and the whole scale forms from there. So the appreciation of music is taking place not in the physical body, not even in the life energy. It is much more in the mind, which is in the life energy or in the body. Because it relates to that level of reality Mother refers to as music and mathematics as belonging to the mental world. It's the reason why... - As the? - Belonging to the mental world. - To the mental world. So any appreciation of music and any sensitivity to music as in the case of the plants relates to the aspect of the mind inside the life force. So in the plant the mind aspect is not developed. It is still in the life energy, that you have the mental component that is being tapped. And it's fascinating that if you play to the plant a music, which is disharmony: notes, which are completely out of Out of tune, the plant not only shrinks, but it can even lose vitality and weaken. Whereas you play something, which is harmonious or even patterns which are harmonious, Not only the plant grows stronger, but it tends to grow in the direction of the loudspeaker. So creeper actually grows and embraces the loudspeaker. And the other plant leans away from this violent RocknRoll... -This has been documented quite well with in "The secret life of plants". Yes. Yes Where If they put in one experiment boiling shrimp into water - and the plants reacted This is done by a scientist called Baxter in, it was in New York in the 60s. He was experimenting with plants To test this response of the plants. He wired up the leaves with what is called a lie detector. Basically, it measures the skin's surface resistance. And he and his graph moving. And at some point he wanted to see, how the plant reacts to pain. So he brought a pair of scissors to cut a leaf And as he was approaching the leaf, there was a sharp reaction. So, he stopped and the reaction stopped. He said: Oh, it must be a mistake. It must be a coincidence, because there's no way the plant can see you scissors approaching So just to test he brought the scissors close forward/back - no response. Okay, it must be a coincidence. So he again goes to cut, and immediately there's a sharp reaction on the plant. And he figured out it was not the distance of the scissors to the leaves, It was his intention to cut. - Intention to cut! And when he had decided to cut, the plant was responding. When he was pretending to cut, the plant knew! Amazing! And then he built up this relationship with the plant, that the plant continued to respond to his internal state. So he had the plant are wired to this device, which is measuring its responses. And then he went out on the roller-coaster, went for a swim, sat and enjoyed nature in a calm state. And he noted the timings for experiences of excitement and experiences of calm. And he came back and matched: exactly the plant was following his state of emotions It was almost as if it was attached to him, energetically and responding to his states. And other experiment which you have referred to is where behind a sheet, so a plant cannot see, okay, (assuming the plant could see) behind a sheet that separates: on the other side he had machine which was dropping crabs in boiling water at random times. And the plant records instantly the pain of the crabs which are dying Though there's nothing physically linking the two, which shows, the plant is sensitive to its entire ambient field especially to people with whom it builds a relationship just like any other human being. And its sensitivity is not dependent on the physical senses. It is feeling the energy space, life energy all around. But that's all we know of... Nobody else has really taken up these experiments to go deeper. Lewis Carroll has a very humorous line in his book "Through the looking-glass" where Alice looks at a rose And she says: Oh, rose, if you could only talk! And the rose says: We can talk if there is anyone worth talking to. We would see if there's anyone who can listen. - Mathematician there listen Carol. So in the... in the last, let's compress a little bit, the last ten years. Yes Young scientist - anything? This example of the Mars mission and now the other groups working to land something on the moon and things like that But all of these are still on the more external side of the technology What I am still waiting for is the deeper perceptions and the deeper insights And it's still something which is in process. As I mentioned earlier, there are two India's: there's the India with the mind Europeanized and there's the India with the mind which is still intuitive in its original mold. And the two I have not yet met. And there's still something happening between these. When I read that line Sri Aurobindo saying, that the mindset of a scientist and a mindset of an occultist, it gave me a certain clue and hope, because I see that in some of the young people today That they have the mindset, which bridges these two. Now, you see, how that mindset would work in a given domain of exploration It's not by chance that some of the most innovative scientists in Silicon Valley are from India. It's because something of this bridging is already there, that they're able to... or have a perception or creativity which is unusual How does artificial intelligence fit in with this path? I'm going to go out on a limb here with... Ok! something more than conventional. You see there again two approaches: one is imitating intelligent behavior with more and more complex computation, with imitation of the brain structures which they call neural networks and deep learning, meaning you go through more and more data, until you're able to extract certain patterns and so on. And then there is something which would be real intelligence, which is an awareness of itself, which is able to guide its own line of thought, its own line of exploration And these two at some point have to meet That transition they refer to a singularity, where the consciousness becomes aware, the computer intelligence becomes aware of itself as self conscious This has to happen in some form eventually Whether it will be from increasing refinement of a process, which then comes so close that it almost imitates consciousness, or whether it will require actually an infusion of consciousness which bridges it Either case it will bring us into that domain, where the occult and the material meet So I expect, in fact, there will be this infusion from the other side which will be necessary So that's how evolution has always been: a struggle from below, but it can never cross the threshold, unless something from above joints. Now that's actually beginning to happen. I will give two examples of this One is a series of experiments which involve response of material circuits, electronic circuits to the pressure of mind, to thought. These are being developed. These are being experimented upon They are called our RNG random something generators Where they measure the vibration of a single atom or molecule And mind concentrating on it brings that vibration into more harmony or less And when you have a series of these put in a certain arrangement You can actually have a device that responds to your thought you concentrate on it, and become quiet and it senses that shift, and the light comes on or Goes off. It is actually being developed. It has been developed, the circuits exist But it's an area which is so out of the conventional science that nobody wants to talk about it publicly When the research funding for this is done by certain groups very quietly. They don't publicize their work And they vet the people whom they want to fund quietly So it's already happening, that this bridging is taking place But the other side is - the occult knowledge in India where in creating a temple, the starting point is you are not worshiping the idol, you are worshiping the presence which have been worked in the idol. And there has to be a technology to invoke the presence . And it's part of the occult knowledge of the temple creation. And it is called prana pratishta Prana is lifeforce. Pratishta is founding, establishing. And the method is actually: a person who has its reasonably developed consciousness. Now, it can be done with or without ritual means. But with ritual means there's a whole different technology to invoke particular qualities of consciousness in two bowls of water. And at the last stage that all the waters are poured into a single bowl. And this is now sanctified, it is literally the aspect of the divine, the deity, the god, which is now embodied in consciousness in this water. And the person takes it on his head and walks up to the idol, and there's a process of transmission, identification with the idol. And then they are pouring of the water to finally fix it. So I had occasion to meet somebody, who's a priest, who does this exercise when they were doing it in Pondicherry at the Ganesh temple. So I asked him: What is it like? So he first explained to me how they invoke the different facets of the consciousness It was for Ganesha, so his different aspects, powers, faculties, weapons and so on... And the whole thing finally comes into this bowl So then he said: And then you... he takes it on his head and pours it. So I said: Well, what is your experience when you do that? He said: When I place it on my head, I forget myself completely, I'm no more me. It is only that deity. And it can choose to walk in with this body whenever it wants, do what it wants. It's not me anymore. And it's only when the transmission is completed that he comes back into his own. And then I said: Well, what does it feel like, when you do this? He said... first they were two of them. So they looked at each other and smiled, and then one of them said: It feels like a sunbursts within you. Something unusual, but that ability that technology to invoke certain powers of consciousness, Assemble them (again like a physical technology assembling all these facets) and then fixing them into matter on an in an object After that, the idol is treated as a living being. It has a physical body, and then it has a spiritual body. It's missing only the means of physical movement by which a human being would express itself So on one side you could have a technology which develops the gross physical motor capacity and the artificial intelligence capability, which brings it to a degree, where it is sensitive enough to respond to that pressure. Using precisely what I've spoke of earlier with the RIG. And at that point you invoke the consciousness from above, which embeds itself in this sensitive circuitry. And you would effectively have a conscious Intelligent being able to articulate and express itself This is inevitable, it's just a question of time What about telekinesis in those years with Blavatsky and others? Yes. They have relevance today? They have relevance for the future. All these skills: telepathy, telekinesis, remote viewing, remote influencing etc, foreseeing of the future, the prophetic vision. All of these belong to the domain of the inner mind and inner vital And are part of our normal evolutionary development. Sri Aurobindo refers to it in his articles on education where he says that so-called Sixth Sense and the powers associated with it are currently completely ignored by education, but the future education will eventually have to take them up and Involve their training also, because it's part of the human potential Unfortunately, the initiative in this direction has been taken more by the militaries of the world, than by the spiritual people Because the military finds it fascinating to use these powers So I have seen articles about this by people who are in the know from the US military So they refer for example to Russia in the 1970s Russia had 35 projects exploring psychic abilities, in particular ability to spy or influence at a distance And the CIA in America said: Well, we are behind them, so we need to kick-start this process. And they invested 20 million dollars to develop the whole technology. And there's an interesting description by the people who were involved in that they were called remote viewers, part of the US military, the army. And they were spying using this technique So at some point they were given to spy on a particular location in Russia. So they projected their consciousness there. They found themselves in a room and On that side were the Russian spies who detected their presence. And a kind of an occult struggle took place, they chased them back. And later after the cold war was over, they met physically. And they shared that exchange. But the person who writes this in his autobiography, he says, they never reported it to their bosses It happened, but they were so scared of the implications. They were afraid their program would be shut down So they never reported to the bosses But for those of us who come from a spiritual background, this is obvious, what happened and how it is But that it can be done so easily, it was to me a surprise. The technique that the US army developed for remote viewing They call it CRV - coordinate remote viewing - or now, they call it control remote viewing. So technique you can actually read up or watch a video, replicate yourself. In the very first attempt, you will be surprised: it works. Anybody, anybody works. Some are more skillful, others less, but... And it for me that was a surprise, because I thought that training somebody would involve an effort which is... which would be required much more. Yeah But it's not so. And so subsequently my understanding of it has also grown. And the same remote viewers now claim that China is training young children So the point is this: all of us have this ability, but we are programmed in childhood to ignore it and to disbelieve in it So your lack of faith, your refusal to accept the possibility becomes your own block, your own barrier to its development. And they found children are the most responsive. And not only in the US but in China they're training children according to these remote viewers from America They're training remote children to not only remote view but also to influence And one of the things they do is they can influence a person's thought Or internal state, but also influence an electronic device, cause it to malfunction. So I just give an example here because this is amusing for us: when the ashram Computers Science Center was first inaugurated, you know Mother was very interested in computers And when Auroville was started, just after 68-69 One of the former students was working in the US with one of those huge computer refrigerator-sized. They called it 'Star' computer. And he had sent a picture to the Mother. And immediately Mother wrote to him His name was Frank Mathur. Yes, I know Frank. Mother wrote to him and said Francois, this is exactly what is needed for the work in Auroville. Bring the 'Star' computer with you when you come Now, you see, how prophetic vision! 69! Computers! IBM was the big computer company. They said, at best the world will have 20 or 30 computers. There's not much demand for anything more than that. And when Mother's grandson Great-grandson Kalia Was completed his studies in the ashram school, the Mother... He wanted to follow engineering so Mother concentrated for a while. And then she said Study computers. That's the future. And the result was - he did his studies, came back. And in Auroville, which was at the time still quite barrent The first computer company started. It was one of three, I believe, in India And it was the most advanced in terms of the technologies that it developed and so on. So, actually Auroville could have been the hub of all the computer technologies and innovations, which could have gone very far, as Mother wanted. Unfortunately, there were issues there and then the company wound up. They sold all their assets. And it's now it's back to zero Yeah, Auroville has nothing of that But Mother put that power, she put that force. Not only she foresaw, she put her force to assist in this development and made it physically that Auroville was leading in India in the whole space of computer manufacture and innovation and development. I know because I was part of that group for a while. I used to go from the ashram I was a student here. So I would go there in the vacations particularly or on Sundays And because I was programming they would let me sit in their R&D room. So I knew what they were doing I knew all the advanced stuff they were doing. and I can tell you this: they were among the world's most advanced They created a technology by which... it was so innovative! You plugged in on the printer port the device and on the other side you could have any equipment, just through the printer port you could connect two tape drives, hard disks anything And it would work at such a high speed! There was no such equivalent in the whole world. Eventually, they sold the patents and the technology to an American company. They made a lot of money, but then you know, they lost to that one facility. Millions! So coming back to that. Mother's interest in computers was not only prophetic, but she saw there this direction. And so the first time that in the ashram school the computer center, they had an exhibition with one of the computers, which Frank brought, and had all set up with logic devices Okay, so here they're basically lights and switches. You cannot do much electronically: at best you have a loose connection or good connection. That's the worst that can happen. So Mother comes to this... And I was told this by one of the persons there. the whole thing malfunctioned. And then Mother commented, that I was trying to see how it would respond to the force. So she could actually get into the electronics or she did something to play around with it I have one last point before we breakup. And that was: Perhaps you could say something about this experiences of the astronauts in space? Because I understand they've been many experiences. One that I remember and I cannot find the paper But it was one of the astronauts looked down onto earth And there was a brilliant white light touching Pondicherry, and they had the picture on the front page of the paper They saw this bright light just on this location above Pondicherry and Auroville. 12 degree from the equator, 11 point something This was in the seventies? Seventies, yeah. But I think all of them, who have been in space, have had some mystic experiences, some mystic opening inevitably Particularly Edgar Mitchell was one of those astronauts who came back with the consciousness so changed that he felt that the current science is too reductionist. And he started what exists today as the Institute of Noetic Sciences. The idea being that you have to have a science, which is of a deeper, higher, even spiritual order, but you can't use that word so it became noetic. But again, this thing can be done so easily, if you bring in the occult dimension, that you can actually project yourself in consciousness out of the body and experience and even explore spaces, other planets and things like that. Which in fact was done by some of the remote viewers in the US military program. One of them who was a mystic Ingo Swann was one of the most extraordinary of these. He knew that NASA was sending a probe to Jupiter So he said, okay, let's prove that what we are doing is real. So he went through his process of projecting himself onto Jupiter, described, I think, if I was to remember, like nine or twelve specific features of the Jupiter atmosphere as well as the space around it. None of which NASA had known at that point. The craft then reached three months later And they confirmed six of those features. And over the next decade they confirmed another three. And so many things like that he did: both projecting himself on the Moon and then Mercury. Each time anticipating before NASA had the data. But again, this is a domain of exploration which at some point will have to become more mainstream If anyone has any questions, please, yes. I'm curious if you... Whether biological systems are the only ones which can carry conscience and evolutionary conscience Do... Can you imagine electronic system or any other, I don't know, quantum computing systems, which would be governed by the same universal laws of evolution of conscious and be in the same...? So in principle... Do we need to repeat the question? The question is whether biological systems only can hold an evolutionary consciousness or whether we could have electronic systems, which could also hold not just the consciousness, but also an evolutionary consciousness. Well the logic of it is very simple If you take the example, I mentioned earlier of invoking a presence into the idol in a temple The Idol... the presence is conscious, and the physical Idol is its physical body It lacks only the mechanism for movement or articulation. Speech would be one of those forms. So what they do in the temple incidentally: they give it a means of articulation. And the method is this: You first map out. And they have a system, where they map out different parts of the body to represent certain qualities of consciousness. And that's a standard thing. Then you take leaves, which have sanctified, so that you don't have other influences on it. And you make them wet and stick them onto different parts of the deity. And then you wait with your question Right, so you're supposed to hold your question and wait Now, it's a sanctified space So what the deity wills or the consciousness wills will eventually affect the physical processes enough, that one of the leaves will fall off, it will dry sooner and fall off. And it will indicate your answer So actually the consciousness is reaching out and telling you: yes, no, maybe, left, right, north south, whatever it is, which is the answer to your question by influencing a physical process. Okay. Now, what you see here is a consciousness, which is responding to you. But the results are sensitive to you: if you approach it with affection with love, it is more happy to communicate with you If you disregard and neglect it, it gradually loses interest and withdraws, becomes less articulate, less effective So you have a consciousness which is dependent on or engaging with you. And in some sense participates in your growth and evolution. So to maintain a temple pure enough you have to have all this apparatus of the people around, who maintain the purity, their love for the idol and things like that, which help the presence to grow. Yes. Okay. Now, this is something so simple Now, the same thing if it was embedded in device, electronic, perhaps, purely materially, mechanically electronic, non-biological, but where it could articulate itself you would call it a living system. Because it's able to express itself and respond It's living, isn't it? Not living with the cellular structures we have, but with electronic structures. And it could also grow, it could also feel loved and respond accordingly and grow in consciousness. So I would say yes. Because that's the logic of evolution itself Now, you see this happening for example with dogs. Or even human children. You neglect the dog or the child - its consciousness will not grow as much. You engage with the child or the dog and In the engagement with a lot of affection you stimulate their thought process in the nature of your engagement What is actually happening is a part of your consciousness identifying with their consciousness lifts their intelligence, lifts their emotions and that stays with them. You are actually nourishing them with your consciousness and they grow. And the same would happen with such a being even embedded in a device. That if you gave it the necessary nourishment, it could assist its intelligence and emotions to grow and evolve. - So in robot one can do this kind of work? In principle, you could do that in a robot. Yes. Why not? If you could do it in a fixed Idol, metallic or stone, Why not in a complex circuit in a robot? I was asked the question once From a friend, how can... In book two [of "Savitri"] Canto 7. How can wry statues spat? How can a statue spit? Here it is, in "Savitri". You know when you deal with the temple idols, sometimes they don't like it, if you don't respect them, they can get upset. And depending on the quality of consciousness which has been envoked, they can be vengeful also. Anmol! Yes, you said that astronauts having mystic experiences. Now, in indian mythology there are dasaratha fighting in the dev-asur sangram. And Sri Aurobindo mentions in "Savitri" Narada. And he describes very vividly and he sees that we all expanding on a table top and then he describes 5 elements. So could it be that you know when they're going away from the earth atmosphere that they are joing some godly regions or anything like that or some correspondence? They're two very different kinds of Drifting into Let's say, higher space There is a physical drifting into space, where you would still see the earth tilted on the tabletop but You'd be physically going into physical location, and that's not very interesting What generally happens though is that there is a shifting in consciousness to a higher grade of materiality, of substantiality, into a higher grade of worlds. There you have a similar experience of a distancing but also often shifting in grade until the physical reality fades and the reality of that domain now becomes more vivid until you've made a transition. So in the... in "Savitri", in the passage you're referring to, where Sri Aurobindo describes Narada coming through the five elements: It is that materialization of the consciousness. As it hits the most dense material level. But what can have a combination of both? There can be, for example, beings who live on other planets, but on a grade of density, which is not entirely gross physical, but subtle physical. Because in the domain of the physical itself, there are seven gradations They're still physical, they're of the same density, but there are finer gradations. So once you shift out of this grade, you are effectively invisible to this grade. But on that grade you are visible to the people of that [grade]. So it's possible that on certain planets there are beings, who live on a level which is subtle physical. They may densify or shift back even with their spaceships. Which is one of the reasons why often we also see beings in spaceships coming and then dematerializing. And it suggests that some of them at least would be from subtle physical domain, not entirely gross physical - And opposite human beings going in... We can similarly. And there is a very interesting story. Balarama, Krishna's brother The wife he chooses, she is from previous age. And because her father, he assisted devattas. So there time has elapsed very fast on those planes. When he comes down there was no suitable groom for her because she was too tall. So Balarama handled this thing, plough and then he made her reduced to his size. So the thing is when you shift those levels the sense of time on those other levels may be different and And the transition to that world and back may involve different times. - But is there body in samadhi or trance somewhere or they are doing this in subtle physical body? Two things are possible one is that you your physical body stays here, you go in a subtle world in your subtle body, but in this case more likely what is described is the physical body itself goes through a shift in vibration to dematerialize or partially dematerialize to match that level. - It's hard to understand. I mean... the proportions... The radius of the Earcth is 6,300 km, right? Low-orbit is 500-650 km. It's tiny step: just 10% of the radius. Why, I mean, why is it so profound shift? I mean, it's... Shift in what? Astronauts... Oh, ok! Just 1/10 of the radius of the Earth and so pshhh... So the shift in the consciousness in astronauts took place for two reasons: first - they were in complete isolation from the Earth. You see an experience all of us have: here in the city, you go up the mountain far away from human beings. There are no thoughts, no thought formations. And often nature has something, a very different grade of consciousness Your mind suddenly becomes clear, fresh and wide. Yes Just that distancing from the clutter of petty human energies and thoughts gives you such a freedom. And if there, in that space nature is imprinted especial consciousness, you come into it and you have almost mystical experience on the mountaintop. Something similar happens when you move away from the Earth's surface into low orbit space even. The second thing which happens though is you are looking from there at the Earth. For the first time you see the Earth in continuty All the borders have gone, all the human petty distinctions vanish. And something in your inner consciousness gets a chance to come forward to see the underlying unity. To those, who have already a proclivity for that, not all had the same degree of mystical experience. For those, who had the tendency and readiness for it, it gave the occasion for the thing to forward fully Mitchell was one of them. Mitchell was, yes. Yes. I would add to it a third possibility which is also for me makes enormous sense. You see, when something so special happens that humanity takes a great leap as going to orbit for the first time, It's not only interesting for human beings: everyone's watching. It's also interesting for the other beings, including divine beings and non divine beings So they also come and say: Ah, here's a person! And if the person has an opening, then those divine beings will say: Oh here, he has a chance to give him an experience! He is open. He's ready. Pufff! This one last point. Sorry. When Narada was descending, you'll notice that he's singing a very special music. And as he gets closer to the Earth the music changes somber someone said... Interestingly! I had an interesting interaction with somebody in the Indian Navy. It was a submarine officer. And one of the unusual things they learn, because they have submarine shifts of four hours at a time: They work 4 hours, sleep 4 hours, work 4 hours, sleep 4 hours and that's their life, ok. So one of the things which I learned there was: he had the ability to go to sleep anytime. And he could sleep standing. So if he's waiting for his boss, he's sitting there, he can just close his eyes, go to sleep and wake up and continue Okay, so we were talking and I asked him: Where are you from? And his village is in the Himalayas. So, what's the man from the mountains doing with the waters? So he said, well, it just happened. And then he began to introspect. And he said: You know, the things which we hear from you (because we had been speaking to them of deeper and spiritual things) The things were hear from you - all that is to me very familiar. But not here! And then he said: When I go back to my village, as the vehicle goes up the mountain and as I approach my village to the peaks of the Himalayas, he says, suddenly all this fades away and the world of the gods becomes for me vivid and real. And I feel them! I feel this is real! And then as I drive down, all that fades away and suddenly, it's like a dream, and this is all that's real... It's just a physical movement. Like coming to Pondicherry from US. You feel that when you enter Pondicherry a very distinctly. There's a point where suddenly you feel you enter the field and it's different light, a different vibration and your thinking changes with that There's... It's been proven that in the high mountains there are blue flowers, by the hundreds of varieties, that will not grow at lower elevations. Blue and blue and blue... Sorry so in string theory In the philosophical aspects of it, they describe whether they're assumed to be beginning to describe nowadays Consciousness and physicality has not distinct from each other that anything physical is energy and all energy is consciousness. Or isn't. The philosophy it's basically going to be away. There you do. There is no such thing as inconsciousness or everyhting is conscience. So Why should there be a distinction? From any of these what we perceive to be physical factors? In principle all matter is energy condensed. And all energy is consciousness activated. In principle, so everything resolves back to energy which resolves back to consciousness. So in the yogic vocabulary, we will say chit, which is the consciousness, and chit-shakti, which is the energy, Which becomes in repeating movement the appearance of matter. Modern science is recognizing that matter is energy. But the step that energy is conscious energy is not yet accepted, because it is so radical that it throws all the previous assumptions of science into question. If it is conscious energy it can choose its own movement, right?! And so what is the law that you call law of physics? Nothing but habit of that consciousness to move in energy, it's not a law, it's not a compulsion. Nobody is imposing it except the consciousness itself choosing to move in this rhythm by habit, by its own free will. Now this is scary for current physics, because it suddenly makes the whole world fall apart. And this falling apart is what Sri Aurobindo describes in "Savitri" if you recall that, where first science saw the whole universe as a machine like a clockwork. And then it saw this quantum play. And it suddenly even that collapsed. And that opened the way for a real science. And that's really the passage we're struggling a bit right now. And generally what happens if we see the past history of science, the old scientists died out. The new ones who are born come with this familiarity: Oh, yeah, it makes sense, this is consciousness, consciousness is prior. And they just replace the old ones. The question is: once you have made that transition, can you really recognize the possibilities of your consciousness and how it can shape energy and matter? Once you accept that, this is possible, that's when the real play of science and the meeting of the occult with with physical science will blossom out. I personally believe, we are very close to that. It's already happening, but it's only on a tentative and unstable base right now, because the formal recognition of the theory is not yet sufficiently developed. And that will come from the knowledge we have in yoga. And if there is one space. where it is most ready that is in India. So when this transition takes place, you will suddenly see in India a great leadership in the new sciences. If consciousness will reach Ananda-maya, it will be higher level, right? Yes, so we don't need to go even that far. Just that there is a consciousness behind the energy is enough to start developing incredible possibilities. Anmol! Yes, just I'm saying that there is Brihaspati we call Jupiter. And Brihaspati is the guru of the devattas. There is a story of Dhruva. When he passed away there was a shooting star. So, like, is it a relation that on all these other planets and all like Divine beings is there or there is an embodiment? It's an experience which one has. When you look at the planets from the inner sight, that you see the planet is a conscious being. And the being has a personality, has a certain character, certain imprint, quality of energy. Mars, for example, is extremely masculine and very forceful, energetic, but I'm a physical grade of energy. Venus is very feminine. Mercury is a bit mixed, ambivalent. Jupiter is very masculine, but with an austere aspect of the knowledge wisdom. And therefore he is described in those terms. Now, so the beings themselves presiding behind the planets are seen and felt. And Mother Earth is, of course, feminine, but an extraordinary, is very special being. And in the yogic tradition she is referred to as the beloved of Vishnu. Yes. So it's a divine being, very special compared to the others. And these things can be seen. So for the ancients the physical reality and this occult reality were contiguous. You didn't separate one from the other. Modern science chops off everything which is above matter. Whereas they saw the full continuum and described that And so they described the characteristics of these beings but also their relationships. So for example Saturn has an issue with the Sun. And the story of that issue goes back to their certain relationships of the past. So all this is described in the Puranic stories. And suddenly you'll find weird stories like, the wife of this planet mary or ran off with that fellow, and they had an affair, and this one was born from that. What's all this? And it's actually describing this underlying relationship of their past as energies. Yeah, and that becomes the basis for many of the rules of astrology. Because when these things align, the energy is between themselves either aligned or they have a stress. And that's what the relationship is describing. And if we are a part of that grid, of that continuum, those stresses impact us and create in us similar resonances or tensions. And that's the basis of the whole astrological science. - And, for example, Dhruva like an Enlightened being, when he leaves his body, can he become a star? So the idea there is more, that he... that consciousness is associated with that star. And so it is given a special place Anyone else? So in summary, I just make this comment Sri Aurobindo has given us hints not only of the direction of the scientific development, but also, in certain conversations, the nature of that science and key elements of it. I have not seen anywhere else in all my studies: both inside physical sciences, occult sciences and the spiritual traditions and philosophies. I have not seen anyone else, who bridges all these domains seamlessly? In a way that you can articulate the spiritual truths and bridge them all the way to the most material forms, in which those truths are organized, or go from here and see the deeper spiritual principles behind all the operations in between. And I believe, as things move forward, Sri Aurobindo's articulation will take a great place. Just as he has awakened us to the deeper truth of the Vedic knowledge, He has also left very important descriptors of the scientific link from the most physical to the spiritual. And it's one of his special gifts for humanity.