Jack Dorsey breaks down the future of tech w Andrew Yang

google has a better sense of what we prefer than we do and Google certainly has a better sense of what we prefer than our partners do III can vouch for that in my marriage you know these algorithms are going to start making more and more of these decisions why did my watch just tell me to stand you know we've basically giving up our agency completely one of the big precursors to solving these problems in many ways is a restoration of trust Jack I believe that universal basic income is central to a restoration of trust yeah hello welcome to another episode of Yang speaks where I sit down for a fascinating conversation with the co-founder and CEO of both Twitter and square Jack Dorsey Jack's one of the most profound thinkers on what the heck is coming next in the world and so we talked about the future of work mindfulness universal basic income of course one of my favorite subjects in the world how is data owned and shared what he's concerned about for the future what he would suggest to the president the future of small business and after all of that there's a really big announcement at the end so stay tuned for my sit-down conversation virtually of course with Jack Dorsey [Music] it is my pleasure and privilege to welcome the yang speaks the one the only CEO of both Twitter and square and co-founder of both mr. Jack Dorsey Jack welcome thank you so Jack I don't know if you remember this I've been waiting to see you to ask you this but you and I met briefly six years ago in Detroit you spoke at this tech ahna me conference oh yeah and I met you backstage very briefly so I just wanted to take a trip down memory lane and say you might not remember this but I was like Jack Dorsey I could 2014 I remember now you seem like such an elevated human you also look the part kind of - you have like this sense of Jack from the future thank you and I think part of it is that you meditate you're mindful like you take this stuff very seriously about like awareness of your own health surroundings and I think it gives you like connectivity to like the the world at large in a way that many people don't necessarily experience but when I want to clear my head one of the things I do is try and get away from Twitter particular period of time and I know you have techniques that you use to try and be more mindful one thing I'm curious about is whether any of the tools or techniques you use utilize technology and do you think that there's a way that technology can actually make us more mindful and aware as opposed to possibly the opposite I do I mean I think mindfulness and meditation for me as a practice of honing your skills of observation and making sure that we are present and aware of everything that we're doing and that we're not blindly reacting to it and just falling into a hole but we're fully aware of the what and also the why behind it and able to make choices there so I've structured a lot of my work around this concept of like how do I get how do I focus more on one thing and most of my day is actually spent on on this iPhone here and the reason I use this instead of a computer is there's only one app open at a time so I definitely take my walks I definitely meditate without a device and whatnot but I think it's more about how we train our minds to to to really observe it you've you've always booked 21 lessons for 21st century I think his phenomenal his last chapter his last less than the twenty first lesson is around meditation he believes and I think we all feel this right now that google has a better sense of what we prefer than we do and Google certainly has a better sense of what we prefer than our partners do III can vouch for that in my marriage and think your kids I mean Google will have a better sense of even who they are than they might and his recommendation is a practice of meditation actually helps us understand why we're doing the things that we're doing why we react in the ways that we do and it's important for us to have that base level understanding and self-awareness because otherwise we're just off shooting every single decision to these algorithms and then who are we I mean it's it's the it's the wali Future that one of my favorite Pixar movies that you know that that is the future where we're headed to and I think meditation is one of those tools that that can at least make us aware of the choices or we're making agency towards technology that that's certainly like a massive issue because I do have kids and to the extent that we had screen time limits they've gone out the window with the covetous I've no idea how much how much time they're spending so you just talked about how Google I know me better than my partner you've talked about how you're concerned about also the future of data ownership and I and it's like I feel like with square you're privy to a certain form of data though it's much more business oriented than you know people's like browsing habits and the rest of it yeah I mean it's just just a high-level principle we people need to own their own data and I think the technology to allow that to happen across service lines across company lines did not exist until recently with the blockchain I think the blockchain presents a new opportunity for us to create identity wallets for people and then you get to choose what's what services get to read from it and also get to write from it and you can turn that off at any time I think it's it's one of those ideas that needs to happen as quickly as possible and at least so many other beneficial things in our space that's tremendous that that is a beautiful vision where we actually own our data and then there are various companies that can make use of it with our permission and we position you yeah and we can turn it off at will like that would be a whole different level of agency for us because right now again I you know you don't know really what the heck is going on yeah in terms of your data getting sold and resold packaged and repackaged yeah and you know what's interesting is I get a sense a lot of the tech companies themselves they may not know that's true I mean this is this is hard this is hard stuff I think the most important companies to actually make this happen are the folks that are actually deploying hardware because I think it has to happen when you buy a device when you buy a laptop when you buy a phone when you buy a tablet if I start on Android and I move to the Apple ideally all these things cross connect and just one wallet but I do think it's it's up to the larger companies to actually make it work together and make this a standard and then I hope they do and that's where I think smart regulation could come in in order to push them to do so that is one of the frustrations I have to where government has been absent from most all of these issues for years and decades where our legislators have a very dim understanding of most technology and we all saw when when Mark Zuckerberg testified to Congress they're asking him all these inane questions about the operator like they when you taught like the like it wasn't like a surprise visit you know what I mean they like theoretically knew he was coming and could prepare so let's imagine for a moment that I were pressing the United States and you and I were talking and you're like well thank goodness that happened Andrew here like the three things I really wish that the government could intelligently get involved with that would be a massive help to us and let's agree that universal basic income is one of them and that's happened and you know that's related to technology but not necessarily intrinsically a techy issue like what are the top few things that you wish an intelligent government government could help with I'd imagine AI is probably somewhere on that list he is definitely on that list and I think like when I when I talk to global leaders and regulators around the world they're focused on the outcomes instead of the primitives being used to build these technologies we have to focus our regulation around the primitives being used and how things are built rather than just putting band-aids over the outcomes you know these algorithms are going to start making more and more of these decisions and they're not being built in such a way that it's required that they explain why that would be one you know one simple piece of regulation is it so field of research and they I called explain ability really hard to do but even small steps we take there would be meaningful why did my watch just tell me to stand you know just just basic things because we're offloading more and more of our decisions to these algorithms and like you've all said in this book if we don't understand why we're doing it and why they're making these decisions we've just you know we've basically giving up our our agency completely why did I turn left just that also when we think of AI we the algorithms but more important is the data and it's very hard for a start-up right now to build a compelling AI algorithm without access to massive amounts of data which are owned by very very few companies right now Google Facebook Amazon Apple apparently the public sector has vast troves of data that are not being made available to commercial actors like Twitter or even academics this is one thing that I know we could help with very quickly where the the public sector governments are sitting on like traffic patterns to weather - like you know - like soil quality like there are things that we could do that companies could do if they had more access and owned and I think that brings to another point is like if you're a president I would ask you like how do we how do we establish a stronger partnership between technology companies and government and NGOs and the media because all four of these have a significant part to play in how society functions and there's faults in every single one of them right now and all of our institutions companies media government have lost a lot of our trust and that can be very isolating yes and it's very hard to solve problems with their constructive yeah so I guess those are the three things I would ask the the rebuilding of trust is something I'm very passionate about Jack yeah because you know you can just look at the polling and see that our trust in like you said media government financial institutions schools hospitals probably pre-crisis I think our trust has probably gone up the most trusted institution in American life right now I believe is still the US military like that like the the presidency it's collapsed and that that's pre Trump and so to me one of the big precursors to solving these problems in many ways is a restoration of trust and so if you have these institutions that have been failing us in many many regards for a long time it's hard to then say okay that institution has been failing me for a long time but now I trust it again yeah exactly I and I think we are we have to decompose trust like how do you earn trust in the first place I think transparency is one way to earn it I think accountability is another way to earn it I think reliability and being dependent was another way to earn it but there's there's it there's a matrix of ways to earn trust and they need to be ranked and they need to they need to be applied to all these institutions but more importantly to connections between the institutions I think that is what's failing us the most right now everyone is he's so isolated your idea of partnership between government media tech companies and NGOs is profound we should a hundred percent do that well that's something I heard a lot from Joe Cinda the prime minister of New Zealand and and this was right after the Christchurch call so like she you know she she also was trying to push like this is not just the government or technical technology companies this is the media - yeah if we you know a lot of a lot of the videos being shared on on Twitter after that we're not you know we we're not individuals on Twitter they were actually reporters on Twitter even though just in - and and Primus or Jacinta and the country asked those not to be shared so we have to collaborate more otherwise you know everything that we're we're going to be facing will just not work you know Jack I believe that universal basic income is central to a restoration of trust yeah where if a society actually invests in you in a real way and says hey look here's money then you actually become more trusting and optimistic or you like okay like you actually do value me care about me you'll invest in me in my future you'll invest in my kids in my future because people can tell when you're bullshitting them honestly it's like if you say to them hey you're great like you're a citizen it's important they're like you know like young people at this point I'm like yeah but if you're like hey you're important we'd love you and here's money and we're not even gonna tell you what to do with it like we trust you exactly love you that's not actually a game-changer I can't tell you jack like I I randomly like bed mode someone money and yeah I know you've done the same thing like I got there yes huge cash app it's the future I did but just like the act of someone receiving money it's like like they can't believe it and just like when our government you know even sent those $1,200 checks like no one believed it until it was in their account like really there's so much built-up distrust and skepticism that when you actually get that money like it diffuses it it's about to me actually restoring trust in people humanity our society our way of life the fact that we actually care about each other oh yeah I mean I live by the principle if everything is connected so if someone is in pain I'm in pain ultimately over time and I want to make sure that I'm doing whatever I can in my lifetime to to help that through my company's works through my own personal giving and I'm in I'm in a situation that I never imagined when I was a kid or when I was 25 or I didn't have any aspect of like what money would mean until I was probably 35 and I I I'm so grateful but part of gratitude is not just saying I'm grateful it's doing it gratitude through Action Man may that be like the theme of this [Music] all right if you're listening to this you are obviously a fan of podcasts and one of the best podcasts out there is the Jordan Harbinger show it's an apple top 50 podcasts it's one of Apple's best 2018 podcasts and well and we love it it's got a frankly a range of topics ranging from talking to FBI negotiators about how to deal with hostage situations you've got mental health situations you've got Tony Hawk on there you've got such a wide range of topics and Jordan such a fascinating guy so it's not pop psychology your superficial advice or BS inspirational nonsense it's a show that offers meaningful fun life-changing insights with a practical edge and I love the worksheets because I come away with like what I'm supposed to do from an episode like this and there's no BS it's very straightforward and simple for someone like me yeah yeah it's really good listening good learning good information from experts that you kind of wish you had access to and now Jordan's done it for you check out the Jordan Harbinger show Jordan Harbinger comso I subscribe on Apple Spotify wherever you get your podcasts it seems to me like you were actually ahead of me and universal basic income it's not like you needed Andrew yang so it would love to hear from you as to like how you originally were exposed to it over the past number of years and how you became such a staunch believer and champion of it over the over the past few years just seeing everything happening with AI and specifically in square we you know we serve sellers and their employees are cashiers and we can see the writing on the wall in terms of the need for people behind those those cashiers we saw this when we had an app called caviar which is a food delivery which is basically moving the point-of-sale to the customers hand the restaurants don't need someone managing the cashier anymore if they shift or more more delivery and we we see that throughout the business and that you know we talk a lot about the we talk a lot about the self-driving trucks in and whatnot and this is even coming for programming like a lot of the goals of machine learning and deep learning is to write the software itself over time so a lot of entry-level programming jobs will just not be as relevant anymore so every single field is going to be touched by automation and ubi to me represented a floor the floor the people could stand on and really have the knowledge and peace of mind ultimately that they could survive and eat and feed their children while they are learning how to transition into this new world it doesn't mean that they don't work it means that they have a floor with which to build and to get to a skill stack that would be more relevant in this in this future so I think that's one aspect of it and and I think the only way we answer these questions ultimately is through experimentation now so so Jack that's where we connected while I was running for president that I was like you very very concerned about the impact of automation and technology and you were closer to it than obviously just about anybody and one of the things I've been saying is that this pandemic this crisis is accelerating the rate of change that we had expected where I've been saying we're seeing 10 years of progress or change in 10 weeks and is that similar to what you've seen and what you what you've seen companies investing in oh yeah I mean like just on the square so just the shift towards online has been has been break fast and like it's it's just been incredible to see how people are shifting and you know that when you're when you're online you don't need a cashier so I mean it does affect real lives and it's certainly efficient for the business owner but it's not great for their employees and that's why we need to look inwards and and really make sure that we're taking care of of everyone and especially our most vulnerable throughout this process as a shift happens and I am optimistic that a shift can happen but but people need that peace of mind in order to just face it in the first place well yeah it's hard for the shift to happen that people can't put food on the table and like our work about paying next month's rent now I feel like square must give you one of the best dashboards and know what's happening to small businesses right now that most anyone has I just saw this study that said they think that 30 percent of small businesses might shut their doors forever what are you seeing at square in terms of what's happening to local entrepreneurs IRA sellers have been super creative in terms of like hacking the system and trying to figure out new ways of doing things so all of our restaurants shifted to curbside pickup and delivery we had a bunch of salons who shifted towards doing FaceTime based or zoom based style constant consultations so a lot of creativity is emerging but you're right yeah there are a lot of people I could use that right now they're growing everywhere I wasn't suggesting that Jack I was just generalizing so true but yes so we are seeing a lot of creativity and I'm really optimistic about that but I mean the reality is that we're seeing a lot of people have to lay off all of their employees we're seeing a lot of folks who are so providers to shut down completely and and for a lot of people this is their dream I mean this has been their dream for years and years and years and they've worked so hard to build this up and it's just been it's been devastating so we're we're doing everything that we can to support it but there are limits to that and one of the things I'm proud of is we were a vehicle for the for the PPP second round we were able to get out over five hundred million dollars to our sellers next day weeks ahead of all banks and and it it's it's just been amazing to see that lifeline extended but I don't ultimately think that's enough we have to we have to figure out how these sellers will change their models and you know a lot of these things some of these things will not reemerge but some some well in just a different format and and that's what I'm excited to help folks to that makes me so happy that Square was actually a conduit for some of that PPP money because I was thinking about those food truck operators and nail salons and just thinking how the heck are they gonna access that money you know it's like a lot of them don't have like a private banker they can call the fact that some of them called you and actually got that money actually makes me really glad yeah we had over 500 million to about 60,000 sellers across the country in every every state and it was from so proprietors I think about 40% of them were employers and 60% were so proprietors Wow yeah I mean those are really like you said they're living their dream you know they had this idea for a small business and they go out on a limb and that's one of the tragedies of this economic collapse is you know it's affecting the local entrepreneurs the most it's it's also just such a massive part of our economy and every single economy around the world like it's over 51% the small business economy is over 51% of almost every national economy around the world yeah it's the job driver to in in our economy and every other economy you know when you're seeing just the seriousness of this crisis led you to do something that is singular in our entire country which is you've pledged 1 billion dollars in philanthropy to a combination of COBIT relief helping girls and women and universal basic income and Jack I gotta say like you see that headline I remember you texted me when you were announcing and I was like I got chills I told you I was like that is the greatest thing I've ever seen because a billion dollars at the time was reported to be something like 28 percent of your net worth you know and and so people look up and and you know if you're worth several billion dollars which you are it's an unfathomable amount of money to the vast majority of people but then everyone can understand 28 percent of one's net worth like what drove you to such a massive commitment that really is singular right now in our society well I I think there are a lot of there are a lot of people doing things privately but I thought it was important that we added more transparency to this because a lot of these things tend to be fairly dark and invisible and you don't really see the the impact and we we launched this with a Google sheet which was just kind of a fast hacky way to do things but the intention was it was very Jack Dorsey by the way the intention was not not only to show where we're giving each each row has the amount and the org and their mission and and what these funds will go towards and also a link to the website for people to to click into and learn more or contribute themselves so not only to attract what we're doing but also to learn like we aren't going to make mistakes in this and I want to make sure that we can annotate this sheet and and just show people where on why we we made this mistake so I thought that transparency was really important and the other I think creative thing that we did is I'm not a liquid billionaire I I have equity in these two companies and I moved the square equity a billion dollars worth at that at that day to an LLC and that LLC then gives it to a daffy over time def is a donor advised fund so the cool thing is that the original billion I get I gave in the LLC is now worth 1.5 point already that's incredible we did move 200 into the death and and they sold it on the market and we now have 200 million of cash to to work with and we've we've now we've now granted over 86 million of the of the 200 so far we've been able to move fairly fast but a lot of a lot of it has been due to the incredible work that existing foundations already have I don't want to build a foundation I don't want to create a bunch of overhead and when all the money to go to the people in need so we it's only two people it's myself and my my assistants a chef a chaff staff Vanessa we want to keep it fairly light and really directed on these three problems of covered response girls health and education and then universal basic income experimentation well I have to say that's the leanest thing anyone's ever heard of in philanthropy two people a Google Doc a billion dollars and we're gonna use this occasion to make an announcement which is that I think humanity forward actually is making that Google Doc the coolest Google Doc in the world yeah yeah we're we're doing that we're doing five million for humanity for it and your work and and I just I really appreciate who you are first and foremost but also what you're doing I think this idea is long overdue and I think the only way that we can change policy is by experimenting and showing case studies of why this works and a number of other countries have proven small experiments as well but we have to do it here and I just your your voice in bringing this to the public conversation and the global public conversation has been incredible and I'm just so grateful because we need this and we need this as soon as possible well thank you Jack I can't tell you how much I appreciate that and I can tell you exactly where the five million dollars is going to go we are going to give it to people just sort of taking a page from your book we're going to just turn around and distribute micro grants of generally $250 to thousands of people that you will make possible so I can't tell you how grateful I am personally and how grateful everyone who's going to be benefiting from this gift will be because I see the requests we get and they are legion and heartbreaking there's just so much needed around the country right now and we've been in a situation where we've raised and distributed 1.5 million or so a little bit more but this 5 million is a godsend and is going to change thousands of lives so I can't tell you how much this is going to mean to so many people hello everyone when I was running for president we mailed a lot of stuff and so what we did is we went to stamps comm and bought one of those cool scales we had them in the office it became this freaking post office out of the office that I have to say gave me some real pleasure every time I passed it because I'm a big believer in mail in the post office I think the fact that we're talking about the post office going out of business is nonsense it's like the purpose of the government is to fund stuff exactly like the post office now when you want stamps you can go to the post office or you can just go to stamps comm which is what we did and that was a home run for us right now listeners too yang speaks get a special offer that includes a four week trial plus free postage and a digital scale without any long-term commitment so if you mail lots of stuff this is your chance just go to stamps.com click on the microphone at the top of the homepage and type in yang that stamps comm enter yang i I want to give up I want to give up all my money in my lifetime I want to see the impacts selfishly in my lifetime and I want to make sure that we're we're helping people that's a good kind of selfish Jack I want it I want to see I want to see that that impact and that's just like I mean when when you build something like a Twitter or square that the greatest value is actually seeing someone else use it that's what drives us it feels electric I mean the first time that we saw tweets from Iran it felt in electric it felt amazing the first time we saw like one of my favorite coffee stores in San Francisco using square and choosing it themselves that would be fine just walk in did you sure they didn't choose it because they recognized you positive and then and then even better is when my mom went into her favorite coffee store that is Betty Lewis and she saw it and she texted me and so like that that electricity that I feel in those moments is the same that I'm feeling right now when I give and when I know that these orgs that were giving to our focused on giving real impact and and doing things that are bigger than all of us and especially me so I just want to learn as quickly as possible and how to do it the right way knowing that I'll make mistakes and knowing that I'll have a ton of advice coming at me because this spreadsheet is open and and and that's that's great and I know exactly where your money's gonna go where we're concerned that like every dollar is going to go into the hands of a struggling American family and it's just like like you're giving us the ability to have that kind of impact on people's lives really I cannot tell you how grateful I like just like as a human being I like I I just it's beyond words really because without someone like you making this kind of move then we're just faced with the need and like and you know and then looking at the need and like you you have to have confidence that you're going to get resources but you don't know and then because of you now we're going to have these resources I just hope that other people follow your example and want that same feeling that you just described Jack aye-aye-aye I hope so I've had that feeling too and it's awesome like people called me the Asian Oprah for a little while on the trail and I wasn't even to do it that much but thanks to you we're gonna be able to do a lot more and I think there's a real appetite for universal basic income right now because of the magnitude of the changes that were faced hundred percent and also because of of your voice I mean you you did put this on the national stage and you know it's been an idea that's that's talked about in this country since we're on Luther King and maybe maybe before that but you you really reminded us all of the importance of it and what I appreciate it about you so much is that you you you were talking about the problems of the future that we're not we're not addressing enough right now like we only have so much time to address these things and if the small steps were taking today compound into experiments that change and inform inform and change policy success I mean that's awesome and the more we can do in the space the better yeah it's one of the frustrations I have is that we've committed 2.8 trillion or so least Congress has towards relief in various forms and right now there are other bills being proposed and let's call it three trillion dollars I'd be like ten thousand a person I can't help but think that most Americans if you gave them a choice between ten thousand a person a whole host of other things like we would probably choose Direct Relief because we're like well I know I'll get it and I know that my neighbor will get it yeah I agree I mean like it's just a tragedy to see this money going to the banks and larger companies when it could be going into the hands of individuals in this country and they like giving people money entrusting them to do the right thing will have positive impact it will and I think that the case against ubi in the in the past has been you can't just give everyone money because they'll just waste it no that's not the case like it will have positive impact and they will do the right things they don't specifies the right things but we need to we need to trust our people and we need to trust the people of this country in other world just such a pleasure Jack you know I feel honored to be having this conversation with you and this time of need for so many and your role model don't - more than you know I mean really like just knowing that you are you and doing what you're doing like makes me and other people feel like amazing things are possible we can't eradicate poverty we can turn this crisis into something that actually accelerates positive change as well as negative we can build a better way of life and you're going to be an enormous leader in that we can and it's been an honor to talk to our future president well thank you for saying so man yeah well thank you I appreciate it and I appreciate your support during the campaign - like that that meant a lot at the time and yeah we'll be back at it you know like the gang gang what will my parents will be happy would be so happy yeah I can't wait to meet your mom I saw her tweets that she's like does that make me like the grandma Twitter she has quite a rambunctious grandchild she chew off more than than she was bargaining for [Music]