The Breakfast Club Address Trans Issues With Malik Yoba Carmen Carrera David Johns Nala Simone


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breakfast more than everybody is DJ envy Angela yeesh all I mean the guy we are the Breakfast Club good morning now last week Charlemagne and I were doing a story Anjali was out in our central pay yes and Charlemagne and I will confuse with different things that we can say different things that we could talk about when we were talking about transgender we were talking about a story from illegal booze here and he called me and said Envy I want to come and I want to have a conversation we also reached out to our good brother Damon who's been up here a couple David Johnson and said let's have this conversation a serious conversation where we can ask questions it's not a joke we can learn and understand everything that's going on because we don't know let's have an educated conversation right so Damon and we're not educated not at all no no so Damon decided to join us David decided to join us this morning I appreciate that so let's get right into it you brought somebody with you and maliki but somebody with you as well so introduce you gasp yeah number let you go first brother sound like a Muslim if you want to be in part but those who don't know again appreciate the invitation I'm David John's I lead the National Black Justice Coalition we are intentional and unapologetic and standing at the intersections of racial equity and lgbtqia+ and same gender loving equality and I want to be clear that when you guys reported this and when I considered accepting this invitation I had to acknowledge that this space and conversations had here have been a source of trauma for some members of the community that's a fact but trans folks in particular right and and and the struggle was thinking about the best way to ensure that we take advantage of the opportunity that brother Yoba has provided to make space to have these conversations correct and so I both before we do anything want to acknowledge both the Tramp of the trauma as well as y'all leaning into it listening to a learning from it and then making space so that we can heal and do better absolutely I'm all for that right amen touching agreement right and also acknowledging that you I'm a black savory loving man but this is a conversation centering of the experiences of our trans and non-binary members of our community I invited Nala Tucson who was a member of our black trans Advisory Council she's a health care worker she's a healer and she's somebody who helps to advocate for ensuring that black people make space for other black people so she joined us today and thank you for coming oh so yeah I introduced to my the impetus actually for a lot of my activity in recent months and weeks is my good friend Carmen Carreras some folks know from RuPaul's Drag Race and she transitioned on television and she's a hero she's a superhero and actually Carmen is the person that Inc inspired me or made me self-reflect as a person who thinks that they live authentically and lives in my truth I realized that when I hang around my friends who were members of the lgbtq+ community they are a lot more authentic than me they live in their truth and they live with the truth with a lot of persecution and abuse sometimes ends in murder and as a person who has grown up in New York City went to Julie Richmond High School talent unlimited program went to kids transition one was Octavia st. Laurent who ended up in the movie Paris is burning I went to school with her who ended up HIV and and you know a drug addicted and you know someone who in the later years of her life I really tried to put her on and some shows and stuff I was producing and so I've carried this this burden as I carried a burden for incarcerated individuals for kids in in in poverty for human beings that are suffering and marginalized that's just my mission in life to lift up other people and so you know world Pride this past June I I thought I was just supporting Carmen on float mm-hmm and I've been around the pride parades around the world like just as a look at people celebrating life and I've always actually always been a little envious because I'm like the primary for me has always been like my how people are just celebrating life it's not some mythical figure or some holiday it's just living it's called pride to having pride in who you are who you are and so this pride you know our first thought was just drinking the tequila on the flow inside then at a certain point I decided to sit on top of the float with Carmen and it was that moment as I'm we're going out Fifth Avenue and folks mostly black and brown people are looking at me and looking at Carmen and seeing us sit next to each other they're drawn whatever conclusions people draw if you sit next to a female but in that moment I felt pride I felt like oh shit thank yo I'm from New York I've been on Fifth Avenue I've never felt this feeling of like you know and it's not about it was just a pride for living and a pride for my people and a pride for the the strength of the people around me and so we've been working on a number of things you mentioned trauma David which is very very real for all of our community and so Carmen and I have a workshop called love and trauma the trans experience which looks at trauma and love from a political perspective community perspective family perspective interpersonal and so we've been working on that we've been working on some book projects some content projects to tell these stories and I found out about trans visibility visibility March coming up and on September 28th I saw it on Instagram I hit them up and I said hey I want support and they said okay we appreciate you posting I said no no use my name I'm gonna show up and they couldn't leave it they were why I said I told the story about Carmen and so I thought that just before you and say oh yeah oh yeah this was like two weeks ago all right so the craziest thing is literally in the space of a week we offered up the workshop the day before the 27th in DC because we wanted to bring together the community it's this isn't a trans issues of human rights issues it's a civil rights issue it's about you know it's cisgender people that give birth to trans children right and so it is the educators in that it's the the jobs the employers these aren't trans people by and large is just considered coming out cuz I thought it to say that just I think it's called stepping up I think it's called stepping up because there's a lot of black men and I ain't gonna blow up nobody but we all know who they are that are in situations where they are friends sometimes lovers sometimes murderers of trans women and there has been no other sis black man that and and for those who don't or confused about the language this is a kind of a term from chemistry that means two things that exist on one side right so for someone like myself who is heterosexual who loves women but I love people and I and I hate to see people suffering it's really really basic for me and so it's not about coming out it's about stepping up and saying y'all black man when mr. C when people want to shame mr. see you they want to shame Eddie Murphy they want to shame or Teddy Pendergrass they want to shame folk because of their association with folks I just felt like who else is gonna be willing to put a target on their back I don't think any Murphy ever stepped up no no one has no one had that's my point oh that's my point and I don't wanna be long-winded here cuz we got a lot of guests but that was just my point of saying like you know like just this past weekend Labor Day weekend to young people died and we aren't talking about it I said you just say murder because often times we say die like but I think it's we got to say what it is this murder is not work they didn't get they got murdered yes brutally right and so often time we we fluffed around they die like as if it was like they naturally that's why this is important matter because like it gives context to like what how what we as a black community get to do to step up notice though the conversation came because I guess you did an interview when out of the interview who said that you were attracted to you know so here so let me just acknowledge all the folk cause I've made I've been screwing up left and right right because I thought you know it started with oh man he's a young man getting taunted in the music in a video Reese Willoughby Reese Willoughby yes now they're silly right Philly right and I see that somebody go that could have been me at 20 years old but this kid is like God fuck that I like this I was like I wasn't saying that at 20 I knew that I had some feelings inside like why is it that if I'm with this or if I meet a woman because my first experience meeting a trans woman that I was actually attracted to but you told me I should use what you use I said we should start transforming the language around attractive because we also have to understand impact versus intent so when someone hears like oh a trans woman like myself I hear fetish right so which is a trip because I didn't know you were trans right so I see you in the lobby I see I see you downstairs I might get us a beautiful woman that's what I thought and so when you told me with trans I leaned in to learn right and that's what it is it's like so my first experience I was 16 years old in the club I meet a woman named Carmen extravaganza I had no idea who she was I just saw this find Puerto Rican chick in a corner and we start talking and she opens her mouth I was like wow and I leaned in I was like who are you where are you from and that was the beginning as a 16 year old you know what what the hell does that make me and there was no language who do I talk to because you talk to your boys they're gonna clown you you're like girl what do you mean I'm like no but this is a human being like she says some really interesting things and I I mean I hope Carmen speaks up because this this woman here is like a unicorn that has been schooling me left and my Malik don't say that don't do that like little things like French this foot this point to my kids yeah no well your nails a fire um yeah I think that for me I've dealt with a lot of men that are just too afraid they don't have the language they don't you know they're quick to I guess pass judgment on other men or on on trans women but they're not able to stand up and say like yeah this is what I like and I'm still popping and I'm still at you know like for me I grew up in Jersey like I love hip-hop music I just I feel like I am just like everybody else in my generation you know and then to feel excluded all of a sudden at one point in my life when I'm being my 100% authentic self is just wild to me and then the men that are attracted to us that keep us as a secret and our hella abusive um it's a shame you know and we all need love so when I met Malik I knew his trans attraction exists that I've heard you know stories or whatever but I wanted to see for myself and I wanted to see where his mind was that and I wanted to see where his intentions were being out of Pride Parade and I wanted to make a friend you know and I wanted to see really like what how does his mind work and why has he come out earlier stepped up we've talked a little bit about this before with the term we should be using as inviting in the thing that that coming out does it is a white people thing it acknowledges that white people get to come out move to gayborhood we've talked about this before Hollywood California Chelsea New York Boys Town Chicago they then get to draw power from being gay most black and Latin next black and brown LGBTQIA folks live with other black and brown people right in Brooklyn around the juice bar most of us are concentrated in the south in states where it is legal to discriminate against us based on actual or perceived sexual identity gender orientation or gender expression it is not safe for black trans folks to come out in the way that is otherwise popularly celebrated in most instances that's why most pride events over June are white that's why that's why most pride stages the people at the microphone are gay white men in spite of the reality there's where Malika's going that there would not be a pride anything that would not have been a storm or resistance without Marsha P Johnson a black trans woman and Sylvia Rivera a lion X trans woman who also then founded a political movement that led to what we just celebrated more recently in terms of civil unions for white folks while black folks still can't get jobs or housing and are dying and so the thing that we have to appreciate is that so much of this is about language when we say when did you come out it would work if straight people had to offer up a similar response but as usually straight people with their RS photo ask them what did you realize you were weird right and then queer people have to offer up some still Corie that's usually laden with trauma right and then sometimes that's that that's disrupted Jason and a deer have a show called style in Hollywood would they say we didn't have that trauma we were supported in love right that narrative has never offered up right but when you shift it to inviting you then y'all got to do the work let me actually what about the final night what happened conferences when you speak because you know as a kid you know we were talking about this the other day at the kid the term was let's say for somebody Vincent Lee retarded that would be the term but now they're saying you can't use retarded right even for as a kid when you would say somebody small and be a midget but now it's not the term so refers a trans woman is a transgender like what is the term that we can use that's not offensive and that's the important piece about relationship building because everyone identifies differently within the community right you have some folks who will say transgender woman you have some folks who say women of trans experience because that's how they feel and then also you have like like when you had Janet mock she says some folks reclaim the term tranny so like I know for damn sure you ain't gonna call me that right because I don't feel affirmed by that but for some folks they take power in that and we shouldn't take that from them there's also this term non-binary right right so we know cisgender is a part of the binary contra and if you don't know what that means so we acknowledge that gender is assigned at Birth people assume that they are male or female if God says you're gonna be this that or the other but the realistic thing that happens is that when babies are born my sister just deliver twins shout out to them Jackson Jeff the doctor assigns birth they pull our instruments they make educated guesses right like and sometimes while babies are in utero this changes there are times where a doctor cannot actually make an assignment and those people are called intersex to your opponent used to be the term that would that people used to call hermaphrodites right and so if you identify with the gender that you were assigned at Birth your system Alex point scientifically means you on the same side if you do not agree because a doctor made a decision based on whatever that doctor was doing at that time that that is how you identify yourself how you make sense of your sexual identity gender orientation or expression you are trans I know and there is a spectrum right of what it means to be trans too often this conversation devolves back into people thinking about whether or not somebody has a penis yes right it'll have shit to do with that which is why I appreciate it Malik talking about and using the word attraction I'm a black same to the loving man I love it I love men but I have trans attraction I'm no bad black women sis and trans and some of this is just about using language by yourself attracted to cisgender women as well to clarify language you know what's interesting is that you know you know I grew up with a name like Yoba I grew up as a Muslim right and so I remember going to school and I wore ku fear and I was told to take it off because there were no hats allowed at school and so even though the principal knew that I was Muslim they still insisted upon me being something other than what I was to comfort them right and my father was not having it the ova means last of the slaves a new generation we move through this world with a confidence and you know a way of being this is I don't care what the rest of the world is saying it's like nipsey said everybody's do I'm doing this I'm saying they saying that I'm saying this and this is my truth right so whether I'm yoga you know this is who I am and the same thing I think happens with language around this issue I make a post and people think it is their responsibility to call me gay and but I which is nothing wrong with I agree I agree that's what it is it me but I would just you know I asked him what he considers I guess great based on guess is gray area know some of my few from my favorite new people in my life or trans men right teak Milan you know the dudes from from black trans TV sir love yes so tonight I've been watching these dudes like feeling like wow these are black men these are black men that have no fellowshipping with other cisgender black men so I made it a point to reach out to these brothers and say I won't be friends with you I want to meet you let's sit down and have lunch or coffee or whatever so I was batik about a week ago two weeks ago and teak says identify as a queer man and I might work well yeah queer for me is you know I'm part of the community forever and you know he's saying that it's more of a cultural thing for him I was like wow so and and he only dates heterosexual women right is that the right time yes I got the right okay thank you so so I said to him I said well I identify as a heterosexual male I love women very I don't want to sound about bragging but I've made a point in my life to really live a well examine life and through all my dating of women I've always really studied what is it about this journey of loving a woman right I my parents were separated at ten and when I was ten years old I didn't learn how to love a woman based on my father I had to learn it through experience right and so I've been very very thoughtful about what does it mean you know to love a woman and so I didn't I've always identified as a heterosexual male and so when when TKE said he identifies as a queer male I said so does that mean if we both love heterosexual women does that mean I need to expand my definition of heterosexuality or do I take on this new term and so I'm not comfortable taking on a term of don't think there's anything queer about me I live in the world political standards it's a so I consider myself a heterosexual male that loves women period end of story I'm not attracted to the male aesthetic I am not attracted to men and so that's where it gets very very nuanced I guess is the world not really just beautiful stop stop sometimes we make these things over complicate it right like I like strawberry ice cream I know I don't like chocolate ice cream I know I really like strawberry not chalk because I try both right like what you're saying is I am a cisgendered identify with the Jenna data doctor sign heterosexual I love women man the comma is because we live in a world where trans people are racist these are trans you are black man who loves women of color since and trans right period full stop question how do you determine between a fetish and an attraction because I'm sure there's people who have fetishes also and I'm sure that has to be a whole nother category in life so so what I was talking about earlier about intent versus impact right so fetish comes is like when you only want to be with that person in the dog you only want to be with that person sexually you fetishizing them right rather than being intentional and actually saying who are you how can I get to know you what are your ways of being and so often time because and I hate to say it but it's facts is that you know our community has this rhetoric that creates stigma for a particularly men particularly black men who can't feel free enough to be with the authentic self to love inclusively to love freely and so what then end up happen is that stigma promotes that federalization right so I can't be seen with you because the hood on clown on me or or you were friends Elin nettles right right you know just brown they killed her you think you know I want to know like okay so for me it doesn't make a man any different if you know he's heterosexual and he loves women and he's attracted to trans women he's still the same person he's I still see him as no different than any other man that loves women now is there a difference when when they fully transitioned let's say that does that is that a different name that you call opposed to somebody for instance when you're a man and you transition to a woman this is problematic that is problematic because again trans-ness has so little to do with otherwise male determined to tell you we got to get beyond being fascinated with people's dicks that's not what this is about this conversation is about people spirits make a space with people and how they show up any got shit to do with what they got between their legs and also too it's like I want to live in a safe place if I want to go to a pergola or somewhere you know and I need somebody I don't want to be a scare for my life I should be able to say hey I'm trans at the bar and not think any less of me you know like that's really what I feel like my place in this conversation because I've met so many men like just dating throughout the years and it's just annoying and they can literally have the most love for you and want to marry you and take you away and all this but they will deny themselves and they will put so much pressure on themselves which just I'm sorry um amongst men like whenever we see these transgender you know women getting killed like one thing that guys always said like oh she must have slept with somebody and I told them and and and and I don't know if I agree with that but what do you say to that often time I feel like that is the rhetoric within our community that there's a conversation about deception because what you're saying is that someone didn't say right this evening right right deception does not give anyone a pass for murder right at all right and so often time and I would keep it real I don't have to deceive anyone for them to come into my bedroom get what I'm saying folks will willingly give their numbers I'd also want that to be clear so I feel like it's a false narrative right that to to soften the blunt right to justify that this person got murdered because they were deceiving when we have the understand relationship and relationship building takes time before you disclose anything right it's about trust right so it I feel like it's equally about having a conversation with your partner whoever you're gonna engage I think the bigger conversation and why I chose people very confused like why all of a sudden this Negro just dropped this in the middle of us for no reason there was a reason there's a March coming up on September 28th and I was very intentional of posting something that would be followed up with a number of posts with Carmen and I and and other members were going to be at the March and this thing's gonna roll out over the course of a month we got distracted with some nonsense and so the goal was to stay on the mission the other mission is to create the space for men I can tell you I've never had 15,000 people join my Instagram in like a matter of couple of days ever ever I woke up Monday morning like what the hell just happened I didn't realize that you know my post was then picked up by black media black social media and spread it around with they put some salt on it people put some dirt on my name which I was expecting not the specifics I was expecting people to take exception to how is this super Negro that has been our hero since the 90s who was the first black man in the history of television to be in a dramatic series representing the hood the way that I did probably on purpose with intention everything I do in my life is with intention I was here a week ago two weeks ago talking about real estate why am i intention about real estate part of that is housing right one of my favorite projects that I have an opportunity to participate is creating the first LGBTQ LGBTQ plus Youth Center in New York City for kids of color that does not exist that's a boss move to say fuck what everybody else is doing these kids should not be homeless station not be in the streets we're gonna provide housing for them I'm gonna learn the real estate game to provide housing for formerly incarcerated people but people can't afford to live in the city how we talked about it where are we getting to the fund so that people can put their money in and have a piece of to say that they own right the other thing is black men out here who are loving trans women who are afraid to stand up and talk I am your guy mm okay I can't tell you I've never had thousands of Instagram fucking mad DMS from all over the world Russia Philippines Brazil London Canada famous dudes famous dudes hit me up your Malik I don't know how you did it bro I don't know how you did it but please so back in the day where I would have to go to find out about the trans community was to the balls if you have watched posed that whole that whole culture that was Harlem I'm 29 Street between 7th and 8th 67 I went my I went that was 19 years old I want to call it a black space again and this is grounded in blackness Sun blacks right yeah I went at 19 years old with two assists with Minh I grew up with I know where I was like oh shit this is like a football game in a fashion show I know what the hell was going on all I knew is there was some beautiful women in there and I was like oh what's that right so that was like early early exposure or you would go to these clubs that they had around New York City and it would be like one dude in a corner by himself over he another guy and the other guy over here and the girl to be running around and I was just lean in like oh I'm just trying to learn who you are there was no place to do that do you feel like a show like pose has been beneficial yo right without question not not only that cuz the girls some of those girls were sex workers and now they have legit lives as actors and they get it which is also a complicated thing right sometimes sex work is done by chore sometimes it's done because you don't have a choice and we need to talk about your experience because I and what and what not looking like a choice is connected to resources you were just saying the fact right because we had a point where like we have to pray another thing have to but there's appraisal from some folks for him having to come out there's appraisal for my people right right and then for for him to also support LGBT we shouldn't have to do that right we shouldn't have to be at a place of praising folks for doing what's right for people for other other people especially black siblings this is a conversation about sibling hood right and so for example it's not just my siblings right and it's not even just about right a black brothers saying they're attracted we also have like like you said cisgender people made trans and non-binary babies so what that also means that we need parents we also need parents we also need fathers to have in conversation and when we're having this conversation with trans women we have an assumption because we end up conflating gender identity with sexual orientation all right we got to be clear that not all trans women date men yes some trans women date women I would like to hear from all y'all on this cuz I want to know what's wrong with me not caring meaning like I don't care who what you identify I don't care who you sleep with like I don't have a problem with it like you're a human being and that's the piece when you say you know the intention versus impact when you say I don't care it's almost like when you swim I hate to say well white people be like I don't see race and it's like is the impact it's like how do you don't see race like I know you can you you get one say if you could tell what a breathe why people can tell what all the breeds of a dog is how you not going care about race oh is when I hear when you say you don't kid ask me like you are like a race in my existence at the same time tell me to acknowledge that you have the privilege of not giving a fuck right because you get to show up in spaces where the assumptions people make about you and how you think of yourself and show up in the world are lined with what they read you in you when that went for you they're inconsistencies you spend your entire life feeling like and being told that you need to shrink hi neglect or apologize for critical parts about who you are that's what I felt like y'all miss willow nice egg I did this at a point in my life where I knew the risk bang and I understood the importance of making space for other folks like Nigel Shelby so that they don't feel like they're the only one struggling with this we've had this conversation in the space before that it cannot be the case that Malik Yoba is the only celebrity can I be the case that Magic Johnson is the only syllable you know living with HIV we got to get over and I wanted to talk about this stuff you asked about whether or not like people are being duplicitous there's so many people I know who show up in love trans women they just don't feel like they have the space because of the shame and these she wasn't saying it's like I care and I'm gonna say the reason why I care it's like out when I move into my neighborhood right white people all over the neighborhood right they already have this preconceived notion about Who I am because I came from where I came from and then when they have a conversation with me it changes but the thing is it's like we got to be able to have that conversation and not be like oh I don't like the way you say that because honestly from myself from know Charlamagne is we don't know that's why I was like what the conversation is important but don't feel like nobody should have to explain because also I feel like what gets missing you saying I don't care is that it's not a barrier for you you see it's right you are you don't engage with it is not the thing that you would otherwise use to dismiss somebody or discount them absolutely that people could listen to this they can watch the video they can go online else to be like your fuck you faggot and so we know we're not doing this for them right we're doing this for one of the people that reached out a friend of mine actually said data dominican chick from uptown i haven't seen her in about seven years she hit me on the ground with a picture of her daughter was less than ten it used to be her son and I was blown was assigned male at birth and I'm like wow she's like yo Malik all I know is thank you very much for your posts twisted is now Evangelina and living her best life and she sent a picture and I was like incredible those stories over and over and over and I'm in a storytelling business so you know what my next Java's you know what I'm doing I'm like we are getting busy right now you know raising money right now to tell these stories because it's important and so for me I have to come into the space to bring what I bring and when I think about just as love and trauma workshop like this is a part of it the conversation is part of it but what happens when we add music what happens when we add poetry what happens we add meditation what happens when we add really intentional activities to lighten the load for people because people don't be coming down the CC with all of this trauma years and years and years of the world saying you do not matter and then here I come and I know I can't do it alone which is why I've been what last week was a very tough week for me for many reasons but why in the middle of the storm I'm actively and intentionally reaching out to healthcare professionals for artists for the people like I mentioned teak Milan so tonight those folks in listen the world is screaming a bunch of nonsense right now but we got a mission and on this date this moment starts a movement I know a lot of hope y'all been doing your work but I haven't seen the cisgender men step up and say this is for us as we lean into this conversation we'll just whole other group of people I know right now there's people in my teams right now like hello brother you did it again thank you very much and guess what I respond to every single person that took the time to reach out because this is that critical to me you know we got work to do period and I know hopefully we can have these conversations without people attacking each other right without putting each other down because we don't understand that we should expect it but it's also then the responsibility of brothers sis and trans queer and otherwise to stand up and be dis and the family members future responses right so my boy I want to shout out I just had this conversation we hang like real men right now and not letting the women talk [Applause] [Applause] kay Bain who runs cure violence out of Queensbury projects and I was just having this conversation this morning that K is my low brother K is you know him and his brothers adopted them quote unquote about 23 years ago they were musical group I saw the talent you know they were he was a street dude doing his thing and I was like yo you got gifts kid and so he's been my little brother for 20-some years and he's going on his master's degree work in city government he's doing amazing work he called me last week so Malik I've been in your life for 27 years please help me understand I feel like I should have known something I'm like you've met trans women I just haven't introduced them as that hmm you know this hairdresser you met you know this actually they were trans you just die why am I gonna blow up their spot just to let me finish this so what part is critical his staff is 80% formerly incarcerated individuals dudes that have done 20-plus years he got 20 text messages last week on my account because of what I would I posted people asked him all kinds of questions so what K did he took the articles that he could find and had them read the articles out loud and process what it meant to them and what it felt like to them and then I go man why yeah I was doing this bullshit he said if I'm gonna be a leader in this organization and stepped into 2020 we cannot do the work around talking about curing violence and healing our community unless we have this conversation and I just say that as an anecdote to encourage people who in confused antagonistic spaces like I ain't trying to have this conversation please do yourself a favor and sit with some folks and discuss how you feel and get to the root of why you feel that way because this is our inheritance whether we talk about the real estate whether we're talking about poverty we're we're talking about education we'll talk about health care check check a box black folks out all this trauma so we as the younger folks who have been born in this time without all the information please just encourage each other to lean in to listen to ask questions versus statements which is so important in every relationship so that we can learn more and just simply lift each other I have a question for Carmen I'm sorry yeah add to what you're saying for example when we talk about trauma we also have to understand the intersectional identities like so I'm not just black right so I I am confronted with racial oppression and then when I have I get in spaces where I invite folks to my authentic truth as a woman of trans experience I'm confronted with another set of oppression right and so those happen to be trauma because also is a conversation around access right what it looks like to go to the doctor what it looks like to sign the lease for our apartment what it looks like to be at a job so often time that narrative about coming out right there's often times we constantly as LGBTQ folks have to invite folks in right for example just locker room talk right God comes in like AI like XY and Z right assuming that this person that they're next to is a cisgender heterosexual folk but what if that person is that's not the experience you are ready in your ways of being excluded the existent by assumption assuming that every person that you encounter is straight every person that you encounter is cisgender and so what we're having a conversation about is like really switching language intentionally hmm comment in um cuz Malik mentioned 10 years old and another thing that we discussed is like is that too young to make that kind of decision but but again you got remember the decision is made for us as brothers David was saying is that the assumption about who you are is assigned to you by the doctors right off your genitalia mm-hmm so you know to the center one time that's what it is and that's why cuz we what we did have a whole conversation about this and you identify with what you identify as at the point of which you were able to do so so some of this is so to be clear what the science says developmentally is that kids as young as five years of age at our kindergarten it happens around that age are starting to make sense of who they are in the world around them it could be the case however if you don't live in New York where you don't have access to the spaces that will be talked about organizations that exist when you have resource rich opportunities you live in rural America where people think black people and black where people don't exist you might not encounter somebody of trans experience that's why I show like poles is so important because it shifts you having to be able to literally engage somebody in a discussion like you take folks seriously so I don't know like I don't know what you do wrong and only because of the youth aspect to it you know I'm saying like only because when you see young you know kids identifying as different genders I'm wondering if they really feel that way or now they have the choices when did you know you were what you are when did you know that you are who you are right like these assumptions and we played these things out without thinking through the impact right like that that process is intimate it can run time I I have been in relationships with women before identified as the same gen 11 black man it's not only complicated as fuck it's not something that people should be expected to regurgitate or command especially when you can't do it so what I just know and so we have to trust that right now kids the vast majority kids in public schools are racial ethnic minority students the vast majority of kids and high schools identifies anything other than strictly heterosexual they're not saying they're gay they're just saying that the ways that Charles brains are working because y'all been wired that way work it's the way that we've been wired because as we have always been taught and always looked at it if you have a penis you're a male if you have a vagina you're a woman if you have a penis you go to men's bathroom if you have as people if you're black you're guilty if you play that out if you were you if if you if you wear your clothes a certain way people are that person likes hip-hop that's verses in the rap that like we do this as a society and I think that what we're asking of ourselves and each other is to elevate our consciousness by one I think the question is fair even if it's our difficult one to answer it is fair because that's one of the first things I would ask a trans woman that I've that I'll be like out because I wanted to know like because the thing is if you find yourself language you know neither says maybe use the word like trans amorous or because law said but but but amorous or love love because love invites folks are really contextualized compassion empathy building trust when you're saying attractive you're it it the impact that is being heard is that you only acknowledge in my physique it's close to this to the conversation we started earlier about whether or not people are being deceptive and duplicitous but I want to say this this is hard stuff yeah ask these questions right but but so much about this is appreciating that at a point in time we needed to make these assumptions we didn't have the ability to sit and community with people and build relationships it was fired a flight you were countering somebody you had to figure this out physiologically the thing that we are wired to think about first as gender right and and women again thinking about privilege and oppression often have to think about gender because they then have to think about ways to protect themselves the way that you then take the next step thereafter is different if you are a person of color if you are small if you were trans in a certain way so some of this is natural it's reflective I don't I'm not trying to beat up on somebody or any I do struggling with this listening or watching that's a natural feeling mm-hmm what we are asking is that we do a better job of asking why why do teachers have boys line up on one side and girls line up on the other without acknowledging that they're there are babies who don't fit comfortably into each of those categories and you can ask them to solve a math problem mm-hm right why do we ask boys to go into one bathroom and girls to go in another publicly when y'all bathrooms at homes are inclusive bath games they are trans badly advised like that's what I was saying like you said that like you know it is a boys line in the teachers don't don't do things that don't make sense that can be a money thing to notice what's the money the bathrooms at the house because bodies based on what back then they can go into what I said to my mother was she didn't understand it because she again heard the fear the lies that people tell if you let the world explain who we are and how we show up she said I don't want a trans man in the bathroom with my niece without a gate acknowledging that that people who are most likely to perpetrate crimes against children know them right and the reality is that every bathroom that she experiences that not in a public space is an inclusive bathroom yeah now I'm confused I thought a trans man was like a woman Teek is a trans man yeah yeah so why wouldn't you want to transmit it because people people are still because because people think that transmits are pedophiles are the same way that people think that men who teach kindergarten are pedophiles right like people make silly assumptions because we don't have so two things that vary if I can we talk about don't let the women talk okay yes sir man where we are like you know the barber shop the other day and my barbers you know telling me what his experience is like last week cuz he's my barber so people come in with a lot of questions and I said you know funny thing is we coming to barber shop and for men we will often talk about sex right yo man yo you sure yo you getting it but we don't talk about sexuality we don't talk about the nuance in sex and so I think that's a great place for us to start because just from a new statistical standpoint if you got five or ten men in a room percentage-wise somebody's questioning their identity somebody's question is sexuality but we don't create those safe spaces for yeah thank you it goes back to that locker room talk that I was talking about earlier is that when you have those conversations you're making assumption around social contact that everyone in the room is straight and so that makes it hard for them to invite you to their being relive the experience and so that's why when you say you don't care what that does right for example I'm gonna kind of shift the conversation just a little bit for example Bayley Rives I hope I'm saying her name right Reeves 17-year old she got murdered shot right 17 years Oh baby teen right and so often time in the black trans community it's particularly black trans woman we don't even hit the age 35 it is a blessing to hit 35 then we have Florida right I think her name is baby loves yeah be love right 23 the way she got murdered it's insane it doesn't who got tied up in burn burn till she was unrecognizable right so there is something within our community that we're not having conversation about how we protect all women particularly all black women hey or the men's this I mean cuz I'm sure like I have felt vilification I feel a lot of love so I'm swimming now is that but you know there's been a few times in my career where my public life where a personal choice whether it's dating white women whether it's choosing a character in the show whether it's you know getting let go of a show like an empire where there's rumors that I was you know crack head you know it's very painful when you sit in this eye of the storm and people come for you and when you talk about the black women I'm talking my black men like my fraternity well my former fraternity I might blow him up right now Phi Beta Sigma we had an executive director that was murdered like that young woman you talking about he was gay he was running for public office in Louisiana because we don't have a culture even within an organization like Phi Beta Sigma that slogan is culture for service and service for Humanity you have a gay leader who has to then go and live in the shadows make poor choices based on that and he was murdered like that young woman mmm no one stepped up as brothers and so as I've gone through my storm recently those brothers didn't step up for me they stepped away and so any and they publicly acknowledged that when they said something public they did they went public and they said well what about the brother organization to the sorority that also talked about defining black womanhood as let me say this because so some brothers in organization have hit me up and said yo that is a travesty because within the leadership of this organization right now there's inappropriate behavior and I'm not trying to blow anybody up but I was critical not inappropriate this is what a hypocritical right and so at what point do we get really comfortable being uncomfortable that's so that we can make everybody and we can all get as I had the same conversation I'm telling you we're gonna be in DC at the Congressional Black Caucus this week I was on the phone couple days ago with congresswoman I love her Fujiko Wilson she's like a mom to me and she read some stuff online I had to Claire it up for her and she said baby just we're gonna come to the town hall this week I say yes I'm coming to the town hall because I have to we have to continue this work and it's not just about the conversation so when I'm talking about it from a political perspective we're sitting with our elected officials to say what resources are you do you have in place or what policy are you putting in place to protect these babies believe a lot of brothers in New York I've already this week date was like we always knew Malik was was into when I was trans women attract transit rapid transit RAC do is so were they yeah and it was like no big well I mean whether people know or not I mean it doesn't it's what does that mean it means that I love women yeah everyone knows Malik Yoba loves women Malik is that a lot of women I love women period in the story but even beyond that I love people I love humanity I love to have an abundant life and one of the things that I feel my purpose in life is is this is how we can all have an abundant life abundance of information abundance of resources abundance of opportunity abundance of friend why do we have to live in a world of lack we live in a world of last yes we're people its scarcity I can't do this you can't do that you're not allowed to do this why are you saying this and I'm saying that is not the only existence that we can live and related to that sterling man I know I know I I'm trying to hold space for people that don't want to care but two things are sitting with with me now I have a sister who's a ordained minister in Houston who when she read the story she hit me up and said if you're ever in space with Malik Yoba tell him thank you because I now feel seeing there now which is right so that's so again they're members in the community black and brown beautiful trans women who show up in grace make a space to everybody else who never get acknowledged Marcia Johnson suburb as examples she was seen I have been up here a couple times y'all have invited me into this space this is September this is my third year now leading the National Black Justice Coalition I hope people consider us a resource as they're trying to work through some of this stuff and I have had friends say to me David we don't get this gate shit we are only interested in even having this conversation and because we care about you we love you in the last week I've had no fewer than five friends one of I've known for a decade call me and say I not had the language to talk about how I feel like this is about because because you made the I'm sorry let me finish this is right because you offered up the language right because you took up spaces that I am trans attracted and it wasn't someone who has been a leader of an LGBTQ organization it wasn't someone who has been in the front of parades our own shows where that has been centered it was someone talking about living and their full fullness of their truth and being ultimately for it I can tell y'all I feel like the free is making America you know that was the one secret in my life the one that was it no other shady nonsense that was it no no I'm saying in addition to that there was no other so what I'm saying is that to walk into a space like my boy Anthony Hemingway's party a wedding last night when you walk into a room a black phone and you know everybody knows see when you walk in the world with a lot of love that comes your way actually I don't say I take it for granted but it's been more than half of my life that I can't walk down the street without people saying you know I really appreciate what you do in the world right but when you walk among your own people and you know that they have a question about your integrity and everyone's giving you the side-eye the people that used to give you the love that's a very interesting feeling and one of the things that I've learned in my own public persecution and vilification is no matter how bad it was for me when people talking shit it ain't as bad as it is for y'all yes so I felt I've had a rev had a revelation and my revelation last week was if you are choosing to stand with this community that is marginalized ostracized vilified deny then you need to know what that feels like in America I haven't had those you don't even I don't get a lot of the like it's hard being black in America as a black man no II definitely depressed in more through this world yes I've gotten beaten up by four white cops in New York when I was 20 years old but I also was working with city kids foundation I took it up with Lee Brown who was the police commissioner III said here's my pain I'm turning the purpose Lee Brown what do I need to do for young black men in this city that are getting beaten up by four white cops I looked I was sexually abused as a kid at seven at 13 I was shot at 15 we talk about trauma trauma Laura I was kicked out the house at 16 with 12 dollars in my pocket a BMX bike and guitar in my backpack and I'm here today to tell you that if we get our minds right if we understand where abundance really lies abundance is all around us how many drops are water in that ocean how many grains of sand on that beach you cannot count it and so when we go through trauma and we have these heinous experiences as children we have a couple of choices either we could fold under that pressure or we can get our mind right we can lean in we can learn some things about how is it that you process this information this trauma how do you turn that pain or that poison into purpose how do you turn it take those lemons and turn them into lemonade and and and quench everybody's curse correct me if I'm wrong Malik because that's what this is about okay correct me from when they said you told the general public before you told your kids oh that is not true okay that is not true and this is what I'm saying about black folk on on media there was nothing to tell tell what was I telling but your kids we're getting problems now after this I can school I think the mother your child the one who put that on it who wasn't the mother it was that learning I don't know either oh no I have no I have no idea why or what that was about but how are you kids now cuz we heard that they were getting attacked all social media they were they were you know what I was gonna bring my 18 year old here today I let her let stay in bed because that child is one of the most wise people I know and I said you know what we're gonna start posting stuff together because the world needs to hear from you little lady that's because excuse me listen to the baby listen she's 18 bro and I'm like Dini oba has more wisdom in that 18 and all my kissing Josiah Priya they're all incredibly gifted kids but to hear her talk about her perspective she's basically like people need to get over it humans a human sure I don't know why y'all adulterer tripping for our generation kids are so weird they just didn't appreciate people like em and my siblings I wanted to give a shout-out to my siblings because they got women get attacked for dating a man and then it comes out that he's dating a trans woman and then somehow the woman is the one that's being attacked for dating somebody like oh she outed him how dare she like I've seen that happen time and time again on you know on social media and I think that's crazy like just because you're dating somebody and but that's that's like that's a huge conversation about what women do to women period it's almost like women often fighting women so it's like it's a conversation that us as sisters have to heal from Ross I thought she paused and she was taking a breath comment Ben say fuck talking to people that listen what would you say to people out there that's listening that that maybe don't know that's trying to get more communication so they understand on even for myself like I got five kids so I want to be able to talk to them so they don't grow up like our generation did and just talk stupid so they understand you know that's why the best thing about this conversation is when I go home I can have this conversation with my kids so do you understand we are all floating on this ball in the middle of space and we're all here for such a short period of time can we just all get along and like just really discover who we are because there's so much depth that we are choosing not to acknowledge because we're so stuck on everyone being the same or following the same belief system or just looking to assimilate with people that we really don't even like and when are we gonna stop doing that you know what I'm saying like that for me is just like I'm only here for a little bit of time and I want to love as many people as I can love I don't want to feel like I can't I'm not allowed to love you I'm not allowed to go to this place or go to that place or you know say hi to you or look you in the eyes or whatever I don't want to feel that and I don't need to feel like I just don't belong period life is too short now we're just gonna say you know I want to apologize to the trans community find any unintentional trauma we may have caused them you know cuz you know I'm community so like thank you for apologizing and moving forward I think what intentional what intentional like apology looks like it's like practice like that looks even much better like what are y'all all committed in the studio doing forward to actually capturing those voices because the positive signs that trans people have been contributing to the black community we got two black trans politicians right now who are in office who are supporting bills to make sure that all black people are free mm-hmm right we got we got models we got polls actors producers right so with all right and so like us being trans does not mean we give up our black car as Monica Roberts would say we don't give up our black cards right like we're still black and our experience just like you have a lived experience that may be different from mine but we also have shared experience because our blackness and the and part is important in this conversation is important because there are spaces where we don't have access to the same rights and privileges as everybody right and I think that's part of it like like we said you know part of it is having a space where we can have these conversations yeah and then and just like anybody else like if we say something foul or we say something wrong call us and check us with us and you can do this as well like the same thing like the whole thing is we have to be here together like people listen to you all people listen to you all these people so us as entertainers should be more educated on who we're speaking to you know because as a trans person listening to the radio or listening to even 50 cent you know like I love 50 Cent's music but I don't like what he has to say about people like myself and the fact that he doesn't even care to clarify maybe is the reason why nobody listened to his music anymore I don't know and I don't want to be Shady or mean or anything but it's like it's like we are artists creating something for people to listen to or to appreciate and so love and you have to take into consideration every person on this planet because you don't know necessarily we're speaking to them and it's connected to lives right mm-hmm like like understanding like literally like your voice is connected to someone living because you have that platform right like like so if you're saying like and not mean I don't harp on it but by saying that y'all don't care or whatever case may be wherever around like the media is that is connected to how someone's gonna show up around the trans moment when we having like a 17 year old being shot right and let's not just keep less the trans men - I just was asked by the trans men of Excellence to join their board I just said yes I don't even know what the requirement to me because I feel like a lot of trans men are left out of this conversation we talked about that door yeah gender binary people or any of that stuff and this is so anyway that it is important for us to educate ourselves - because we do have a platform so when we have these discussions it's not always okay to just be like well I don't know because there's definitely ways that you can do your research and find out people's experiences and find out the right terminology that you should be using and look those things up so that we're not just blind when we have global we also have to give grace right like this stuff is not easy the the lad root of the word education is educate it means to draw out this process of learning and being challenged and trying new things and adopting new language is difficult and people are going to make mistakes and so it's incumbent upon us again acknowledging the collective trauma that we've experienced as a result of transatlantic enslavement white supremacy anti blackness and all this other shit the way mired in to give each other grace right I don't think giving up that coming-out lingo only because that Diana Ross song so fire people products this is celebrate the things that gay people do but they want to do when I like white people will adopt rape be profited off of our culture and then and then this hetero black folks don't understand how the two are connected I love like gee Marilyn I just know they're hilarious they're smart I just do I don't because a lot of them call me sis so I'm gonna because a cisgender sissy they call you sissy that's not right no Ashley we sup what we gotta talk about that too right and in the same way black queer men s aims at eleven men men who have sex with men whatever can't stand in the space of demanding to be respected in our identity and then misgender straight brothers why don't hate on trans men which is a whole other story cuz I want to say this for a lot a lot of women have been hitting me up Sammy so if you like trans women attracts trans women does that make you they're men they'd love to say but they're men wrong so so much good to me if that is true so for all of you cisgender women naturally born women who think that trans massage not natural about that as natural okay so what I'm saying is for women assigned female at birth okay so for women who are assigned female at birth and stick to that and for whom consistent with how they identify for whom there's a lot of worse who the work do it again for who for whom it's consistent with how they identify okay so for women who had who were assigned female at birth and consistent with how they identify right so for those women who question and say that trans women are men the question I didn't have for you if they are men would you sleep with them mic drop would that make you a lesbian oh no that's the question because they say no he's pointing out the contradiction in the term if she's saying if someone's looking at you women say your men would like so the question is your men what a that's why I say like the distinction between gender identity sexual orientation because if a woman identify as a lesbian or like I don't want to get I get numbers from men women all over across the identity spectrum and you know it's up to me to say yeah I'm feeling you are we getting a little too deep we were trying to keep it trans talk for dummies 101 the closest thing to this we talked about media media is important we talked about pole shot at Angelica Ross and all stuff they've been doing there's an episode of a Netflix show that the first season of it has Anthony Mackie and it's black hair best friend it's the European show that takes on technology black merit black male scrag Good Wife that's exactly right so striking vipers the episode shows two cysts gender heterosexual black men and that will marry his best friend is into women has enjoyed women and the two of them play a virtual reality game where they show up in a virtual reality world much like Street Fighter where Anthony Mackie shows up look-alike and riu and his friend whose name escapes me buddy phenomenal reacted part shows up looking like chun-li and the two of them in this virtual space engaged in a cisgendered heterosexual relationship in virtual reality but their two straight black men in real life what do you call them video game players do some stuff she also has relationships and intimacy questions that come up but some of this is about like what would happen if we just got beyond the need to cling on to these terms what did David de meses ibly they did meet up to see if something was there between them and it was but they were also meeting in a space where the two of them were dealing with trauma a previous existing relationships not having language scrutiny Mackey didn't show up in a space where he was not free and a comer from all the stuff that was going on in his life got you and so again some of this is about people being able to deal with the trauma not having to deal with shame and stigma so that they can get free to the point where they can show up authentically in love this is no different than two straight black people in a toxic relationship messing with each other not showing up and honoring each other in ways that they should some of this is just about us interrogating things more some of this is about adopting language so we can make space for people but at its core it's really about humanity and asking better questions we appreciate you guys for joining us but acknowledge the acknowledged it as well III don't care who you sleep with that's what I be saying now the whole and don't forget September 28th is the trans visibility March so easy on DC's my 7th we're doing our workshop love and drama so we need on October 8th there's a Supreme Court rally around a title of subtitle 7 there's a piece of legislation that again would allow employers to be able to fire trans folks or people they think are trans and others without really in Washington DC to change legislation about the policy it's really about the policy then rights and inna obviously did we have a huge luxury condo next year and we have an administration that doesn't give to about anybody coalition JC tower Oregon MB JC on a move across digital platform thank you guys so much again for you guys whenever you guys want to come up here [Music]