What Other Landmarks Should We Rename


Mr. Beat


Landmark (Literature Subject),Harney Peak (Mountain),Lakota People (Ethnicity),Black Hills (Mountain Range),Mount McKinley (Mountain),Denali National Park And Preserve (Protected Site)

last episode we talked about how Mount McKinley was officially being changed back to Denali and so now there are other groups of people that want changes to land land forms that have names that are given to I guess historically America wide America and they've opened the door back to her native american regions although the specific case I'm talking about is Harney Peak which is the the biggest mountain and the Black Hills of South Dakota it's a you know it's a small mountains about a third of the size of Denali but you know the Black Hills of course used to be sacred land for the locusts Native American tribes really and of course this was promised to them time after time tree after treaty and then treaty after treaty was broken and the the Americans of course ended up taking it all and once they found gold and they named a Harni peak after a general who you know he he was a civil civil war-era general I don't know a lot about him but apparently he was a he's described as a brutal army general whom Lakota tribes blame at least for killing 86 people including women and children under chief little thunders flag of truce in the Battle of Ash Hollow in 1855 so that bit of information was a little surprising to me that and that's why I know many people not just the the Sioux but other people want to change the name to something else although I didn't see another name mentioned they say they don't have one that's the amazing thing yeah didn't it say keen where is it uh the south dakota board on Geographic Names which advises the federal board to settle on um he nincada or making of owls in english um is that and see then yeah I was like in parentheses and of course they brought up there some ridiculous federal policy of not putting parentheses and a title which makes sense but yeah but like obviously it wouldn't actually have to print the cease it out then that's kind of what I thought when I read it I'm like early on I you have to have the english translation of it and i don't see why you would have to have that yeah my my prompt as opposed to two what's the name of Mount McKinley now denali Denali yeah I beat him phila Denali so did I so Denali has been called Denali and has um was repeatedly asked for it to be changed throughout its history in fact the the UM when it was changed it was something like five years I think it was changed in the 50s and was requested to be changed by the tribe within five years of it being changed and then like was advised by the local government in the late 70s um this is something that's been a long time coming um right and and a lot of locals just simply refuse to call it mount mckinley so when you have that kind of difference there there is at least some sort of precedent for changing it here they had to have a board of regions decide on a name you don't get to change names just because you decide it's time to change it oh it's politically correct all the sudden but yeah passing 40 years congressman and Ohio was able to block that name being changed for four years when you have everybody and when you have a congressman from a state that has nothing to do with Alaska you nobody shares a border with Alaska that is friday that exert that kind of influence then that's a bit of a problem but here that's not something that's just some senator blocking legislation or anything this is something that hey if Denali can change it we can do but they're not showing anything in terms of a a precedent for for change they're just deciding hey it's time for change and that's not the way names change that's not the way the English language works and like that so at that we do get to kind of say what name what things are named as but I mean talk to anybody who like has been through any of these kinds of name changes because it happens on the local scale any number of places i'm sure you guys can talk about streams yes streets that have changed names because i remember in las vegas there was a street name change to Martin Luther King Boulevard and everybody's kind of gone over to it but it used to be industrial street because that's where all the industrial stuff was um was and the thing is I don't know what gets really strange on that is actually Martin Luther King and industrial meet and changed names halfway through so a lot of people just call it one or the other and for the longest time it was just all industrial and then Martin Luther King has kind of started taking over because that's a more prominent part of town but that's such we only in the last like five years or so so in reality the name that they decide on and Congress doesn't matter it's it's what the people decide and in their colloquial use but that's so hard to nail down that and it can offend their decision can affect the colloquial use right but but I think their decisions should be based on corpl we will use not the other way around dictating law says on the map and the signs the big deal and that's song at the Department of the Interior I just find an amazing that we even have a word of geographic names in our government I mean how do you get appointed to the board of geographic games and they sit around and they're like we've got too many mud lakes we need to change the name of some of these I mean this is this is part of the story I found ridiculous why didn't you have states that have like 30 or 40 mud lakes it's that's a bit of a problem I had no idea this existed though I mean who's on this board I mean to I need to get some former geography teachers or something but uh well here's another thing that I thought about to with that is that if you have 30 or 40 mud lakes or mud creaks or you know wolf creek whatever it is how is it that you can't come up with other names when there are so many awesome possibilities for well I mean think about all the great historical figures alone that we could we can name all these places for I don't even if it's random like chill are those mud lakes to some obscure politician who really made a big difference and you know from our hobby come on just I like stuff this is cool night I mean this article demonstrates we're not even confined to the English language here I mean what did you say though they're wanting to change the name of this to it has a mouthful the translation uh-huh yeah it hun hun and kaga I keep on seeing that and thinking it's supposed to be jellies you know people would call a cog a leg they would they would cuz if I can think of a lot of inappropriate jokes for that name to Obama okay yeah whether or not people or people are going to be foolish about that ten-year-old to be like Hannah kaga yo mama yeah but I teach you I know all right there's enough now um you know but the thing with mud lakes and that is that a lot of the lot of the reason behind all that naming is because that's just the colloquial use ran and you know trying to impose changes on co local news is hard there's also a history of the opposite of that happening where street names are tried to be changed and people like literally go and like spray paint the the old name and stuff like that I can name specific incidents in Nevada and also specific since it's here in San Luis Obispo where people have tried to change names and that got it passed through the legislature and then like only a couple years later price street is back to pry street that's so silly to me like why are people so stuck in like the old ways too I mean it just seems silly to me that people are so tied to the old names of locations like they're so offended when you get used to calling us something a particular something and then you're suddenly told by some foreign board that your name was inadequate that what you've been calling it is wrong this whole time and you should listen to them like I'm comin at ya who the heck are they to tell you what to call something that's that you have more of a personal relationship to then um then that so your local usages is a much more powerful thing and that's why Denali is is was good to be changed because that actually hit the colloquial usage as opposed to this we're not so much here's a question what about those the names that like horny we know is somebody who committed bad things like he he killed women and children allegedly I'm pre I'm not having researched it myself but if you have somebody I mean Custer's another example you could say I mean there are so many things they're named after George Custer that I mean but it doesn't mean there are there are evil men that in history that have lots of things named after them don't you think that maybe they should be renamed if they did bad things well I don't even know that that's the biggest issue here because there's another part of this article that was just appalled and he mentioned local area things that he could mention you know it said there's 866 places in the United States of America that have the word squaw and the name yeah and they've changed 246 of them you have it they arise if there is a place I kid you not last time I went by there the sign was still there it's called dead in den like there's a there's lawyers of course there's a famous ski resort called Scott and squaw valley um cheese is what I mean that okay but you guys are so not say enough topic here but you didn't answer my question i'm not i don't care about the article i'm saying just in theory is it okay to have all these things named after essentially bad guys people that did horrible is it ever going to end I mean I there's no doubt in my mind Custer was a horrible you know he committed atrocious things looks like when is it going to end it gets down to the point where it becomes political more becomes racial and it's like I wanna get rid of everything named a number us officer who was involved in the Plains Indians wards yeah and and for the dementia to Sitting Bull you're like well Sitting Bull's warriors killed a lot of people yeah and and furthermore um you know where where it's talking about it doesn't even mention the Grattan massacre but um which is well kinda what it's talking about the 86 people is talking about the Grattan massacre but that's always kind of done with the the scare quotes on the side of it it kind of like you know Boston Massacre you don't ya even more even Martin Luther King jr. you know he was a womanizer ok let's I mean he wasn't a perfect there's no end to it but at the same time you kind of contradict yourself there Robert because a few weeks ago you were saying you know about the Confederate flag you know yeah we have to we can't just a whitewash history we have to tell history like we to arrange people away haven't what y'all and will you name something when you name something you're honoring that person necessarily okay that's a good argument I could I can definitely name a number of I freaking um have a book here that I know the author of that is talking about place names than that and I can especially when it's talking about like the price children down in pismo there's a there's a strippers two streets named after his two boys who rather famously said to people uh to visitors to pismo ablaze just for fun like man I'm not even joking they really did just for fun they said it in court because it was fun and there's two streets named after those kids obviously nobody thought those those were people worthy of honoring but they're part of the history there rancho pismo was owned by the price family for quite a while so that entire land and the oil interests that started coming in later was were very much tied to that family so in naming it that they're not honoring them they're just stating what was there um there's any number of there's a street in in in there's a number of schools that are named after walking marietta um that wasn't a good guy demo although they always is that how you pronounce have always said hokey yeah it's walking okay I cuz I've never heard anyone say walk in a lot Christopher Walken yeah it's a it's a Spanish name so yeah I said hokey yeah I always I hear what you guys are saying but it's like culture something is going to offend everybody I mean I've got this here in my notes I mean some you know to pretty much anything you know it can offend somebody and it's like when does it ever and yeah as if s the fan of history though I I guess I'm being a bit selfish here because I see an opportunity hey we could there are a lot of historical figures that I feel like they could get more attention and maybe this is the one way to do a lot like this I never heard of this general I don't doubt that he was involved in ordering troops to go yeah now this was an ugly ugly chapter of history but now they mentioned here you know that's a dirty how they called it white supremacy you know that the white man would come in and rename stuff you know because they were the dominant culture and it's like well what is this and the reverse after going back in the other direction and we're also the dominant because number of people so litical back and forth is kind of one saying it's just like John Brown was a hero then always now this generation thinks he's a raging psychopath terrorist now he's back to being a hero Andrew Jackson used to be insanely popular I mean they call it the Jacksonian era and today and all they think he was just a raving maniac and one is a picture off the twenty-dollar bill hey there was a lot of good things at entergy Nixon it's a battleground that goes back and forth it just is tiring and furthermore on all this stuff is like you always should be deferring to load to come to local use local cool coil standards you know there there's a reason why that name caught on and there's a long history behind all this this is why etymology is such a powerful on historical tool because I but uh yeah gone sorry I kind of catch up I'm just saying somebody had a first name that's that street or name that mountain it I it started somewhere yeah it's been like that what you know ever since they named it a hundred years ago 150 years ago but that doesn't mean you can't just change it again and then it will become common usage again and people will forget within probably a few years with it was changed it wouldn't be that big a deal be like that's Martin Luther King jr. road or MLK Boulevard yeah whatever like in most other places they don't care like they do it were i live near lawrence kansas lawrence they changed it street names it seems like every couple years they're changing a street name and like walmart rearranges stuff so you have to go through their store to find the summer sausage buy more that drives me insane i like stability yeah and it would be where I expect to find that but you'll often get a lot of timers who who will remember this name changes and just sit there whining about it for years if not decades I mean I know I know people here who are complaining about things like this and they're complaining about name changes that go back to the 1850s and they're complaining about it like it that happened within living memory um generational hesitation craze that's more than a century and yet that's because although the white man came and and took our land is like first of all you're not Mexican second hall there was a long time ago the y gil runs deep though deep I mean the other mention it here with the offensive stuff and you know that was how they ended the article was if it's a offensive or derogatory to particular racial or ethnic gender or religious group you know we've just gotta get rid of it but they did mention I mean just the cost of all the new maps and all the new road signs and all their tourist material has to be reprinted done over with and this confusion and people show up you know expecting you know Harney Peak and now it's owl peak or whatever you know get three or four different names it's confusing well that kind of thing tends to even out after a little while you know people get used to the new name it takes a couple years and then everybody just starts and I mean like with Martin Luther King Boulevard and in Las Vegas that that everybody just kind of started using it despite the contention of the old the the actual history behind the name industrial street and and like purposefully forgetting that there was industry there then there's actually a history of ignorance of that kind of stuff within the City Council yeah there's a lot more to be said about it though if you're changing it from a person you're taking Mount McKinley and changing it it's way more you know a front of two people if that's even a word you know if it's industrial street okay but if you're changing it like it's named after a person you know there's a lot more to be upset by yeah for the chain if you're changing robert e lee dr. martin luther king jr dr you're not just changing the name you're making a really big statement that you're making a huge one that's quite a statement yeah yeah uh-huh and that's obviously what's a true here I mean the Lakota that still is their ancestral homeland I understand it entirely considering this was a general that went in there and had a lot to do with you know basically taking their land so I mean that's what this really is about yeah and in that sense I'll say I agree with what they're saying and thinking one hundred percent yeah but there are definitely ones like mud lake that I could definitely get behind changing together with a few last mud legs yeah like there's a lake here called laguna lake and you know your Spanish laguna just basically means lake so we have a a lake that's called lake we want to we have we have a valley that has a fairly steep grade going up it that's known as the cuesta grade which basically means grade grade um no it's it's problematic yeah I do want to correct my because it just popped into my head and I do remember a few my sister lives in Canadian Texas she has to drive by it all the time it's been a while since I've been out there but probably two or three years ago she did come up to me when she saw me said you never they changed the name the AUSA that was dead end in like I think she said they changed it to broken leg leg and I actually named it because there was some settlers chasing after a young Native American and they did shoot him and they chased him down and I think he actually fell and broke his leg there then later he died there so they literally called it that because that was where they literally murdered this guy and I think they changed it that memories coming back to me but that kind of insensitivity built into the names yes we is is kind of a good thing because it encourages interest and and that story lives on because of that name yeah and despite the insensitivity built into the name you know history is not really about being sensitive it's been about our getting to the hard facts and I wouldn't have known that story if it wasn't for that name you have a one hundred percent valid point so I have no problem with contentious names hell I think we ought to encourage it a little bit to a point start on conversations and we are getting way too sensitive as a society certainly but also you know beaten shamelessness is a virtue and um you know when we have somebody who's an Indian fighter who didn't really have anything to do with the with the particular area unfortunately but you know if for instance he was actually one of the ones who were fighting in the Black Hills um during those series of wars yeah and I had been part of all that then what would be the problem besides yeah it's contentious but it's purposely contentious sometimes when they change the name back to a native american name that can be just as offensive because there's a street name in olathe close to where I live the late the Kansas there's black bob road which black bob was a show out and that was a pejorative the what they called him like i don't think it was meant to be something that was necessary flattering but it was that's why his dream words mrs. what yeah the white settlers called him that and that's what now what they named the road after so he's always going to forever be known it's black bob did you guys notice this other thing i had tossed this paper so i was ready to be done with it but did you guys notice this other statement in here there are 617 places with negro in the title and said most of them were named that after a 1963 US Secretary of the Interior band the very similar but much more offensive n-word are we avoiding that word and on this podcast yeah well keeping this kind of education I don't like saying it anyway because I know it is I don't mind saying it cuz so shameless illegal Tom's Cabin I won't do it but because I know it bothers people a lot so but literally most of them became that after the Department of Interior had to say we're not using this word and names anymore that is crazy yeah that's 1963 yeah all right that was yeah I want to share about that does this nice little discussion about it was and I said we can go on and off forever about just little stories I try to keep it short let's